The Ultimate Technology Isn't AI, It's You ft. Mark Zeiler | My EdTech Life 367

Welcome And Sponsor Shoutouts

Dr. Alfonso Mendoza 0:11

Hello everybody and welcome to another great episode of My Ed Tech Life. Thank you so much for joining us on this wonderful day. And wherever it is that you're joining us from around the world, thank you as always for all of your support. We appreciate all the likes, the shares, the follows. Thank you so much for engaging with our content. We really appreciate all those downloads as well. And I definitely want to give a big shout out to our sponsors. Thank you so much to Comeback Coffee for keeping us caffeinated and creative and just giving us that energy to continue doing these shows. Thank you so much to Book Creator, Eduaid, also, and Peelback Education. Again, thank you for believing in our mission so we may continue to bring some amazing conversations like the one that we are about to have right now. And I am excited because today I welcome a wonderful guest whom I've been following on LinkedIn for a while, kind of like lurking in the comments. We kind of have, you know, the same uh, you know, network and so on, but it's just great to have him here in per well, in person on a podcast, but you know what we mean. But I'm just excited to have a great conversation with Dr. Mark Zeiler. Dr. Zeiler, how are you doing today?

Dr. Mark Zeiler 1:25

I am doing great. And again, I'm just so excited to be here as one of your guests. I think the work that you've done over the years in this space is inspiring. And I love the fact that you're so into just impacting the lives of people, and I really truly believe you do that with every episode. And 400 episodes isn't for a way, my friend.

Dr. Alfonso Mendoza 1:45

So I appreciate being no, thank you also for being part of this journey, and it's just a fantastic. And thank you so much for being so gracious with your time. I know we had to kind of reschedule a little bit there, but thank you for your flexibility. And but it was just great also to speak uh, you know, pre-episode and just finding a lot of uh likenesses in in our uh, you know, outside ed tech life, you know, in that sense. So it's just been great to connect that way.

Mark Zeiler’s Path Through K-12

Dr. Alfonso Mendoza 2:15

But uh, Dr. Mark, before we dive into the show, for all our audience members who may not be familiar with your work just yet, can you give us a little brief introduction and what your context is within the education space?

Dr. Mark Zeiler 2:31

Yeah, absolutely. I I've had the pleasure of serving K through 12 education for over 20 years now. So my high school English teacher really got me into reading and writing. Just you know, so I was really connected to literacy. And through that, I I got excited about becoming an English language arts teacher back in the day when I had more hair. And uh man, I I just loved connecting with students. As you may know, the uh this idea of reading as like something pleasurable isn't you know, isn't as widespread as we liked. And I loved being somebody who's just really pro-literacy, get the campus really excited, get the school community engaged. And uh through that, I had a lot of avid readers that came back to me over the years and just thanked me for helping to see the the value of literacy, just like I did with my former English teacher. And then because I was very excited about literacy, I thought becoming a media specialist would be a great transition to impact more students and families. And around that time, there was this digital transformation because uh in Florida we had the digital classroom plan and there was this movement toward one-to-one uh school environments, and we had SSO, the single server login, which was a really big deal back in the day. And ClassLink came out with Launchpad and things like that, and we adopted uh those types of technologies. And so my role at that time was really uh helping the school adopt ed tech platforms. I worked with the school district uh with their initiatives to help provide professional development for the students, teachers, administrators, just to make sure everybody understood what was coming and what it looked like and how to integrate it uh successfully into the school environment. So, you know, if we think AI is a little tricky, back in the day when it was a lot less complicated, it was still pretty tricky uh to get all the humans on the same page. But I really enjoyed it. And uh around that time I transitioned into sort of a leadership role because the uh principal is working with a lot of promising qualities, as she would say, and she invited me to join the admin team meetings, and so I started serving uh as a teacher leader and uh sort of helped developing some of the initiatives uh related to the school improvement plan. And as I got to learn more about the administrative life, I got excited about that. Uh meanwhile, I was working on my doctorate, as as you have too, uh Dr. Fonds. I um so I as I developed all of the the skill to to be a stronger leader for people, I I moved into that administrative space. I started out as assistant principal dean, which is a great way to lower your blood pressure at a large high school. Um but man, I loved it, you know, because a lot of the students you saw regularly that the that the teachers are really eager to sort of get out of the space for corrective measures, you know, they would come in with a certain demeanor and a certain attitude and a certain uh belief system. And as you got to work with those students and and connect with them and see see them for who they really are and what really drives them, you realize that as an administrator, you can really impact instructional space in a different way. And then so it did a lot of collaborating with families, with teachers, with departments, um, you know, with the different personnel we had to provide resources for students, and eventually I transitioned into an operations role. And, you know, Florida, like other states, you know, has really uh strict school safety and security mandates. I got kind of my hands uh in a different pot at that time, and uh really just was able to impact the school campus in a different way. I really enjoyed connecting with uh custodial staff because again, a lot of them feel undervalued or or maybe underutilized or underseen. And I was able to build a lot of camaraderie and do team building with them and help them kind of be seen within the school community. And I'm a very hand-bone leader, so I was right there with them doing all the different things that we did. At this point, it was a very large campus. It was kind of a community college layout, it's a very interesting um school because I think they started building the school and then they continued to add building, continued to get more and more spread out. So in the end, there were over 200 acres on that campus between the academic buildings and the athletic fields and whatnot. There was a lot of territory to cover uh facility-wise, but again, I I really enjoyed that. And then I moved into a curriculum and instruction role, and through that, I was able to continue to develop the school improvement plans and really look hard at the data and kind of what I always like to do is understand how the data translates into the people that are related to it, so not just the students, but the different classrooms and teachers were working through and the different courses, and and so again, a lot of cross-team collaboration. And one of the accomplishments I was most proud of in that role moving from the school year 23-24 to the next was we had one of the largest deficiencies in eighth grade math in the district. We were only 32% proficient um in our eighth grade math. And I knew that that was a data point that we really needed to improve drastically if we were going to stay in A school because we were only two points away from being a B school. And so through that, you know, I really forged really strong relationships with all of the eighth-grade students who were in those those uh pre-algebra classes, uh, the teachers. We use ed tech platforms, uh, McGraw Hills Alex was a big one for that, and uh, just being involved in the community, having data chats where I would uh put on speakerphone the parents and have the student in the room, and then follow up conversations with uh the teacher just hey, listen, I smoke so-and-so, this is what we talked about, this is where the child is, where the child needs to get to, this is what the child's interested in. And so I just really enjoy the people part of it. Educational leadership, like you know, you and I were talking a lot about the importance of human-centeredness. It's one thing to talk about it, and it's a whole other thing to juggle it in the school space. So I guess I guess my viewpoint of educational leadership is that it's very messy, it's very rewarding, but it's very messy in the sense that in a school building it's really hard to make it very far uh physically. You might make uh five, ten, fifteen feet before you have another problem to solve. So there's uh you just get to this point where there's so much pressure because you're trying to accomplish so much and you're trying to help out instructionally, but there's also facilities or safety and security. You know, obviously they're data breaches and all these things going on that you know everyone's navigating. So I bring that up because there's this tendency to try to fast forward through the day. You're trying to get through the next problem, get through the next conflict, get through the next challenge, get through the next argument, and all the while, all you want to do is just get to a point where like you can positively impact instruction and and the positive culture. But the going back to the messiness, if you try to fast forward through the messiness, I realized uh looking back that you you miss out on so much of that human-centeredness that we talk about in the States. And I was thinking how that reminded me of if you saw the movie uh the Adam Sandler movie Click many years ago. Okay. Yeah, so it's just this overwhelmed architect who's very busy striving for success professionally, and you know, meanwhile, he's got these young kids and he's trying to navigate the kids and you know keep his marriage uh moving forward. And so yeah, he comes across this universal remote control that allows him to fast forward through the messy parts, and some of that mess is just arguments like uncomfortable conversations or diff difficult moments with the family that he just wants to kind of get over with and have pee so he can get on to the next thing. And so he's constantly fast-forwarding, and it he he achieves what he feels like is success, only to look back and feel like, oh my gosh, so much of what I fast forwarded through was my life. It was my kids growing up, it was my marriage coming apart, you know, it was all the different things that it's it's really tempting to just want to get through to get through. So that that's one of the cautions I have for educational leaders is we have a tendency to want to fast forward through so many of those uncomfortable moments. And for us to truly be human-centered leaders, I believe we have to slow down and we have to embrace more of those difficult moments, face-to-face, you know, eye to eye, make sure we're actively listening and understanding what the people around us are going through. And by doing that, you know, we really start to see the impact that we can have in the space. So leadership isn't about fast-forwarding through the

Leadership Is Messy On Purpose

Dr. Mark Zeiler 12:03

mess. The the mess actually is the leadership is my message for that.

Dr. Alfonso Mendoza 12:08

Yeah, no, and you know what? Uh you kind of uh opened it this up where you actually answered probably my second question too, that with all of this. But one of the things that I do want to say is I really love right now this whole moment that you just shared with me. Everything went back to that human-centered piece. Like when you described, you know, an operations, you are not only are you there in charge of operations, but you're doing the work with the people that are doing the work. You are a hands-on leader, and I think that's something that is fantastic. And I know that most of my best experiences have been when I have had leaders that are really hands-on and not only talk about human-centered leadership and what they may look like, but they actually live it. Because oftentimes, and and I'm gonna say this uh in our space, oftentimes we can say the phrases, we can, you know, these are the buzzwords, this is what everybody's using, and we want to bring this back. But there's a difference between just speaking about that human-centeredness, but also living it. And I think right now you gave some great examples of what that is like. And it's not always going to be pretty, like you mentioned, you know, and oftentimes it's in those dire or tough situations that you're in that really help and to build you up, to build up those communication skills, those collaborative skills, those critical thinking and problem-solving skills, and knowing that you're not on your own, but you're also working with a group of people and trying to come into a nice space where everybody finds, you know, a happy median and you can continue to move and grow. And so, yes, you know, there there is gonna be that friction that you may have, you know, with colleagues, you know, every once in a while. But I think, like you mentioned, you know, as you you you use the example of click and just fast forwarding to those things. I think uh, you know, even in myself, I I feel that many times I just move too fast from one thing to another that I really don't give myself even that enough time to either take in and enjoy like a success, or even just if something may have not gone the way that it should have, just even give myself that time to just reflect also as well, and then continue to move on because it's always like I just want to solve the problem, I just want to make sure everybody's happy, I want to make sure that everybody's good, and then we just gotta continue moving forward. So I think that, you know, everything that you said was was great because we can hear, you know, a great keynote talking about human-centered uh leadership, but I think right now, in just this introduction, I think this was like fantastic. So much knowledge and so much wonderful gems that were dropped right now about giving some great examples of that human-centered leadership. So I want to ask you though, you know, before we get into a little bit more of the meat of the conversation, because it is over, you know, talking about human-centeredness and especially right now in the age of generative AI.

What Tech Adoption Gets Wrong

Dr. Alfonso Mendoza 15:29

But I want to ask you, you know, even in your current role, what what are some of the things that you've learned from even being an ELA teacher to the media specialist and now an admin, what are some of the things that still show up with you that are lessons that you've learned in the classroom that, you know, sometimes show up when you find yourself in maybe in a situation where you do have to, you know, problem solve, you know, or there's a conflict. You know, what are some of those things?

Dr. Mark Zeiler 15:55

That's a great question. And what sticks out to me is again, we we talk about all the different um technologies, you know, the tools, the platforms, and we talk about a successful adoption. And I think a lot of people take for granted that a successful adoption looks a little different inside the school than it does when, you know, the we're going through the procurement process at the district and you're having conversations with the vendor, and you know, we're having these different plans, but it's it's about the way that technology impacts people. That's really what I've seen firsthand is the firsthand impact and also that technology impacts different people differently. We often talk about how students learn differently, and you know, we should personalize and individualize education for kids. We don't talk enough about how, you know, teachers and staff also operate differently. You know, they teach differently, they think differently, uh, they have different belief systems that they bring to the table. And you can't just ignore those and throw initiatives or adoptions on top of them and sort of run through them. You have to work with them and you have to understand, you know, what's on everybody's mind. So in the ed tech world, it was uh rather common for an adoption to come in and you would have sort of your teachers that you just knew right away wouldn't be any issue because they're very technology-fancy. Um they they would come in, they would adopt it very quickly and easily. Uh, but there were also teachers that sort of were more hands-off on technology, they're like, hey, I've been doing this a certain way for a certain number of years, and I know I could do it just as well without that as I can with it. And you know, so you have to have a lot of different kinds of conversations. It almost reminds me, as I'm speaking about when I was in college, I read a lot of uh One Minute Manager books by Ken Blanchard. He has a whole series of these things. And the idea is you speak to different people based on their levels of experience, maybe their levels of motivation, you know, their levels of readiness. And so, again, so much of technology adoption, we often say it's not the technology that's failing us, it's what's happening with the people and and how the technology is sort of being um you know released into the into the setting of each different school. And I'm also kind of fascinated at the thought that I mean, let's be honest, technology where we're at with AI accelerating the weight that it had, it's just mind-boggling the capacity of it, what it can do, what it's capable of. But that doesn't change the fact that the same AI tool that could do wonderful things in one classroom or one hallway or one school isn't necessarily going to achieve the same thing, you know, one school over or one school district over, one or two states over. So it's that disparity. And, you know, people use the word fragmentation. Uh obviously, some school districts are just graced with a certain readiness in terms of their infrastructure, you know, the professional learning they already have in place, the culture they've developed, but not all school districts are the same. So that's I guess that's the lesson I'm trying to get across is it's just there's so many inherent differences from classroom to classroom, from school to school, school district to school district, which is why, you know, I I think the first several years of AI has not gone as smoothly as we'd like, because there's this great hope that, hey, this is the great equalizer, and it may very well be, and I hope it is, but to get there, we have a lot of work to do with making it work for all the people in the different spaces.

Dr. Alfonso Mendoza 19:43

Yes, no, you're absolutely right, which kind of is a great segue into this next question that I want to ask you.

The Speed Of AI And Our Fears

Dr. Alfonso Mendoza 19:49

You know, I've been hosting the show since 2020. Uh I started, you know, in March, April-ish 2020. And, you know, we've seen Yeah, and then we've seen the Yeah, we've seen the conversation, you know, from 2022, you know, on about Chat GPT. Now you've got Claude, you've got now so many platforms in the education space, in the professional space, talking about schools that are getting enterprise licenses or or the teacher licenses and so on and so forth. But I want to ask you, you know, in your experience, not not only like from your personal experience, you know, but from you know our circle, you know, network and so on and so forth. I want to ask you, what is one thing that keeps you up at night about how fast the technology is moving? Like you mentioned. I mean, uh the like I was talking to you earlier, it's like the commencement speeches this year were all about AI. Take AI by the horns. You need to use AI, you need to really get into it. But I want to ask you, okay, what are some things that keep you up at night based on how fast the technology is moving? But what are some things that you wish people were a little bit more excited about, you know, from your perspective?

Dr. Mark Zeiler 21:07

Yeah, and you and I were speaking earlier about, you know, some of the CEOs out there, like I think of the anthropic CEO and this whole idea of the country of geniuses, and you know, this concept that there'll be this whole country of geniuses, essentially with these agionic bots that have intellectual capacity beyond measure. Like, what does it all mean? Like, what does learning mean? Where are we going from here? So I I guess in terms of concerns, my concern is keeping humans at the forefront of these innovations. And again, that's one of those things that's easier to say than to do. But I believe the circles that we're in, and Fonz, you are a shining example. Having the conversations is a great first step in the right direction. You know, because if we're all kind of isolated and we're all just kind of sitting in front of our AI platforms and trying to figure it out in isolation. It's a different experience where we're having the kind of conversations we are now. And I know you're, you know, you're you're at a lot of professional conferences. And you know, in those conferences, you have conversations that can just take you miles, make miles of progress. Whatever that quote is about you can sit across from a wise man or read a hundred books and you get about the same result, right? Sitting across from the wise man and having a conversation with fellow professionals, that's the thing that really excites me. And excites me more than than it concerns me in terms of the future we're headed into. I'm very hopeful uh that we're headed in the right direction with the kind of conversations that are being had around the space. Uh like you, the there, this whole idea of human-centered leadership, you know, it feels like there are so many conversations about why it's it's absolutely critical to keep humans at the forefront of these conversations. And as long as we do and we remember that humans are are going to be the ones that set the tone and set the stage for what comes next, that's great. Back to the concern, you know, like I I have two young kids uh who are two and five, and I just I I guess what I think about is how different life might look uh society-wise when

When Automation Amplifies Humanity

Dr. Mark Zeiler 23:18

they're adults. Uh, we just a couple of weeks ago, I think it was a Mother's Day uh gathering, we went to a restaurant and there was a robotic um food delivery robot that would basically go from the kitchen to the dining area, and then the servers in the area would would go and take the the from the the robot to the tables. And when I first saw it, I was uncomfortable. I was like, man, you know what's what's left here? Like, are isn't dining supposed to be a very human experience? Like, do we really need robots to deliver food? So I'll be honest with you, my first instinct was I didn't like it. I was uncomfortable, but when I watched what unfolded, it was interesting because this was a top quality uh serving crew. And I I I used to wait tables, so my wife and I both have experience, and then we say things like, Man, you got to wait table for a day to really understand what it's like. But it was wonderful. The servers were just on point, you know, they were connecting with the people at the tables, they were making eye contact. I did not see one server take out their their iPhone. Um, so there was no distraction, there was a very human-centered focus in the dining area, and I felt like it just made it work because instead of like, if you're the one serving the tables, you hear from the kitchen, runner, runner! You know, like they've got hot food. The cook's just finished and they needed to get to the dining area. So instead of that, instead of being the server going from the dining hall, racing back to the kitchen and racing back to the dining hall, you know, the robot saved people the space. So it it automated that space to make the workflow easier. And then in doing so, I really believe it enhanced the dining experience because you know, it took more pressure off of the servers to cover that distance. And then the servers were just they couldn't do enough for you to make sure that you had what you needed at the tables, and you know, it was warm greetings. When we left, it was a warm hey, have a great day. So yeah, I went from being very uncomfortable, like, oh man, I I don't like this at all. Can robots stay out of the dining experience, please? Till I was walking away from it. I really thought about it after I was like, that actually worked. And if we can model more of that, like I think that was a great example of technology amplifying humanity, right? Because that's that's one of the conversations that's pretty common.

Dr. Alfonso Mendoza 25:51

Okay, you know, and and it's very interesting because I know, you know, for the most part, I know when these conversations started going back to 2022, I mean, I was all gun-ho, like yes. And then obviously you start hearing some things, and then of course, in doing my own research, you know, for my doctoral studies and everything, then I just kind of said, Whoa, let like let me pause here a little bit. So like in November, I was like all in gun-ho. Then in March, when I started, I did a research paper for one of my doctoral studies, and I was like, whoa, like this is like I need to slow down here and everything. And then I kind of just bounced back a little bit, and now I was like, all right, let me kind of be that cautious advocate. And and you know, I I want to give credit to Dr. Nika McGee. I know, you know, I'm sure you're familiar with her. They're on LinkedIn too as well. She's phenomenal. And I know when she was on here, she used that catchphrase. And, you know, now I always I'm along there with her. I say, hey, you know what? Being a cautious advocate is something that is great. Um, you know, but for me, hearing this is something that is fantastic because oftentimes you know how polarizing this can be. You know, like I mentioned to you, the reactions and those commencement speeches and many people, obviously, the conversations with data centers and all of that. It is you're either for, you're either against. But, you know, for people like us, like maybe because we see things differently and we see that people, that human aspect, we work with students, we work with educators, and obviously we want to make sure that everything works and that everything's gonna be fine for future generations and especially in education, you know, just I I love to always bring those, those, see how we might reconcile, you know, those two sides and just kind of meet in the middle. So that's a great example of how, you know, what we're seeing opened up that experience and and actually it it made that experience a lot better. Like you mentioned, you know, the how attentive the servers were because they had one less thing to worry about as far as running back, but back and forth, and so on, taking that additional time that normally they wouldn't have to be able to engage with the customers and really bring in a true dining

Cognitive Offloading In Real Life

Dr. Alfonso Mendoza 28:06

experience. So that's something that is great. Now, kind of uh going back a little bit on on just on the other side, you know, as far as a lot of teachers that I've worked with here in my area of South Texas, but you hear it everywhere, you see it on social media. It's it always comes back to well, students are just gonna be outsourcing, they're already outsourcing their thinking. You're hearing it from the university level, you're hearing it from the K-12 space. And even now, you know, even in the professional setting where uh I think there was an article, and and I wish I would have had that linked here, but article where programmers are saying, like, oh, we're we're just kind of you know cognitive cognitively offloading and kind of losing those skills. So as somebody who has come up and and that what I love is that your experience as an ELA teacher and you know, and being in the classroom and so on, I want to ask you, you know, what are some things that worry about that you worry about as far as that cognitive offload? But then at the same time, have we done enough to respond to this? And if not, what might we do better in your experience through your eyes?

Dr. Mark Zeiler 29:19

Yeah I'll start with this. And this is gonna be, I hope my wife doesn't watch this, but we we recently um had an anniversary, and I'm really good about getting cards and I get flowers, and I'll do this well in advance so I don't, you know, get into trouble and I make her feel special. But jokes aside, when I got that card, it's a great card. I she resonated with what it looked like, but when it came to writing the card, my very first instinct, no joke, was hey, let me run this through Claude to see if it comes up with something good. And I immediately was appalled at myself. I mean, it is appalling to think that I would try to offload something so important, and I did not, I did not do, I did not make that entry, but the fact that I was thinking that I think is just where we are as a society. I mean, think about all the different things that we're using these platforms for that really truly we don't need to, but we're only doing it because it's there, it's it's convenient, it's what we're used to doing. So as far as the kids go, there is this, you know, there there is this talk of essentially as human beings, kids will do they'll go through the path of least resistance. You know, they'll by nature, and it's it's no fault of their own, they'll want to just get the work done. They'll want to get it done as easily as possible, as quick as possible. And if they have a resource like this where they know they can turn it to and get it done quickly, that is hard, a hard draw. In terms of our response to it, I think our response has been slow. I don't again, I don't think that response has been our fault per se. I go back to when uh smartphones came out. Adults were not ready for those small the smartphones that come out. Kids weren't ready for it, sure. And we talk about you know the social media debacles, and and those are real and those are troubling, but at the end of the day, uh adults were unprepared for what life would be like with these devices in their faces, you know, as often as it's tempting to have them. So we certainly were not ready for AI by any stretch of the imagination, and then the response has been very slow. Um you are you and other educators know that in education you can take the simplest initiative, the simplest initiatives you could be talking about, hey, let's let's establish a gun shoeing policy, and you would think that initiative would be very easy to to get through a single school, and you would be wrong. Because it you know, you it's so it's so time consuming. There's policies, there's procedures. If you're having a conversation with more than one person, it it's gonna take time. And then you go through departments and you go through committees and you go through, you know, school boards, so all these different things have to happen for certain policies to get pushed through and and initiatives to pass. And it I don't think schools had moved very fast, but it's again how they were designed. I mean, schools were designed very much with compliance in mind by necessity, because they have to be in compliance with so many different policies and procedures. So part of what's happening here is the flow response, which is historically what we get in education systems. And then there are certain leaders in education systems that are just further ahead because they have more comfort with the technology. And in those rare cases, those those districts are able to move faster and and turn that ship quicker for the students and teachers. But yeah, to ask to ask teachers to navigate what's happened here the last several years without clear policy and clear direction, and most importantly, the professional learning they need to truly understand the tools they have at their disposal. Yeah, there is you you you can't you can't wave the the blame at the teachers and you can't wave the blame at the students because when you were a kid, if you had this ability, you know, you could talk about how you want to do it, but a lot of kids do it uh because it's it's what's at their fingertips. Just like I'm sure. I'm sure there are people that buy greeting cards and they go home and they they get whatever they're gonna write on it from from an AI tool.

Dr. Alfonso Mendoza 34:05

Yeah. No, and you know, and that's a great take on that, you know, and that's some some things that we definitely need to be talking about a little bit more because like you said, e even now, it's been what it's gonna be four years this November, uh, I believe man boy at this time five, and there are still schools that haven't really gotten up and running with policies. It's conversations that might be difficult to, you know, and because like you mentioned, you know, it is interesting that even just to go through and talk about policy, all the people that need to be in the room, and then all the people that need to agree with it, then how you write it up, and then you have to move it up and push it through and so on, and it just seems like there's so many um, you know, stops in between before it even gets to to to become something. And you know, it and then the way that the the technology is moving even faster, it's almost like you you're just being you're reacting to the situation because it's so hard to even think about the way that this is gonna look for this next school year in August. What's new? What's gonna be here? What other LLM is gonna be out there? And what other LLM is gonna be like, hey, use us, you know, we are your full-on one-stop shop, child privacy, FERPA, KAPPA, everything, every it, you know, initial under the education blanket, we are all that in the bag of chips, and we can help you with everything. So it's just very interesting, like you mentioned.

Dr. Mark Zeiler 35:29

You said that well, and you know, it's I'm sure you've heard something of the effect of a rear review paradox where you know, by the time someone does react, you know, what they were reacted to in the rear view is already passed them by, and then there's something totally new. Yeah, that's a very real yes, absolutely.

Why Policy And Training Lag

Dr. Alfonso Mendoza 35:46

So I want to ask you, and I want to talk a little bit about and give a big shout-out to the human intelligence movement. So a big shout out to them and and you know the work that they're doing, and you know, also bringing you know great topics, great speakers, they have a podcast. They're I mean, if you're not following the human intelligence movement, please make sure that you do follow them. And so I know that you are part of that group, you know, and and I mean, I w I think we all are in some sense because we're all all connected in that way, shape, or form. And that's something that I love. But one interesting thing about um the human intelligence movement is they talk about the social emotional adaptability and cognitive competencies, you know. So those are, you know, one of the three kind of big things that they mention, they talk. And so I want to ask you, you know, based on your experience, you know, not only with the movement, but again, through your perspective, because I always love to hear and you know, from my guests, I want to ask you what uh which of those three would you say in your experience in K-12 and what you've seen and heard is probably the most undernourished right now?

Dr. Mark Zeiler 36:57

And I don't think this is from a lack of effort, but I'd say the social-emotional, just because the needs are so vast, and you know, you and I talked a little bit about COVID. So we've had some astronomically challenging times where when you go back to COVID, there was nothing ever like it, nothing prepared us for it. It was unprecedented. All the challenges that that brought with it, and then you add on to that this whole AI, you know, movement that's happening. So there's just all these changes that people are um navigating. And from the kids' standpoint, when COVID hit and a lot more students started learning from home, and and I think that trend is continuing today because you know, we we have enrollment challenges in school districts, you know, where school districts are down thousands of students and up causing all kinds of problems. Part of it is during COVID, parents were exposed to sort of a different avenue to educate their kids, and they've learned that uh there are a lot of different options. Again, I'm in Florida. In Florida, it's the very first time, just these this last couple of school years, the first time in history that more families opted a school choice option than their regular zoned school. So more than 50% of families in Florida are choosing at least one or more school choice options. So charter school, private school, magnet school, what have you. So, you know, there there's been this a lot more kids learning at home, and and then that isolation and you know, all the different things that go with it. And you mentioned we talked about social media and all of the problems that that's incurred, and I don't think those problems have been solved yet. Uh they've been mitigated a little bit better. But I just know when you and I were in school, and if if there was a case of bullying or someone saying something unkind, you know, that when it was spoken, it would be a very small group of people around you. If so, you know, and me was said, now click of a button. A whole school community sees that comment and it just earths shattering, earth shattering for anyone, but especially for a teenager or you know, a young child that hasn't learned to navigate uh that kind of challenges before. So, yeah, social emotional, and I, you know, I do believe there are a lot of responses to it. You know, there there have been some policies in Florida about a certain number of hours that we have to provide social emotional instruction, resiliency, uh building resiliency instruction for students. But again, there there is, you know, there has been a disconnect between the actual challenges kids are going through and the kind of resources that we're providing. And not to mention so many other things, Fonz. Like in when when you're in brick and mortar, another thing to add into the mix is, you know, is as kids get older, is there's this vaping epidemic. So it's hard to walk into a bathroom without uh vaping happening, and you know, you're very limited as a school administrator about how to handle certain things like that with the privacy and whatnot and the policies that are in place. And then a lot of those policies are heavy-handed on discipline, not so much on solving the the addiction, you know, that some of these kids have to that. So you just you can continue through all these different challenges in the direction of students, families, educators, and we're all doing the best we can to navigate them. And I think the more we see each other and work together and try to overcome and adapt, you know, do what we can to make the best of the limited resources that a lot of schools have. Because that's another concern I have about, you know, I mentioned enrollment with every, you know, and for it, something like every 20 to 25 kids that don't go to a school, you're talking about a teacher that we're missing, you know, or a staff member that we used to have that, you know, now more people are doing multiple jobs. Well, there's just an endless lens, endless list of things that need to happen to support kids and to support instruction and to support a positive school culture. And uh, you know, I do believe that COVID and de facto sort of made that more challenging for present day. Even if AI wasn't in the conversation, it would be a very challenging time. And now with AI in the conversation, boy, we're having a lot of fun uh in K through 12 right now. But again, yeah, the opportunities definitely outweigh the the challenges and and the pitfalls. And I just I absolutely love you know the circle that you mentioned. So many people devoted to doing whatever they can to support schools and students and teachers. And yeah, there's no question we're moving in the right direction, but we certainly have a lot of hurdle that we're navigating along the

Social Emotional Needs And School Strain

Dr. Mark Zeiler 41:56

way.

Dr. Alfonso Mendoza 41:56

Yes, absolutely, and especially with resources, I mean funding. I mean, it seems like every every state, every district that I'm sp or you know, or hearing and even here within my neck of the woods, which I never thought that I would see. I mean, the the the types of news that I'm seeing normally was for anything four hours north of me, San Antonio up, that we would hear, like, oh, there's gonna be a school closure, things of that sort. And but now when it's happening in let's say my backyard, just a couple of minutes down the road, and seeing that and seeing now teachers that are getting displaced, teachers that now are, well, what now? You know, what's happening? It it's just, you know, one thing over another. And then obviously now with generative AI, and then like you mentioned, the the vaping and all of those problems that are just kind of compounding, you know, on top of each other. It's very difficult because I know we talk about the technology piece, and for us, at least for myself, you know, being uh really passionate about educational technology, I always say that, you know, the technology should help us innovate and enhance the learning on a daily basis. We should be able to trust the technology but and not overwhelm the users of that technology, whether it's gonna be the teachers, whether it's gonna be the students, or even also the district leaders as well. But, you know, sometimes right now what we see is the opposite is happening. But I think that you mentioned it's it's because there there is so many other things that it just feels so burdensome. And especially right now when teachers are drowning in tools on the day in and day out, so many new things coming out, you know, and then of course you're doing AI rollouts, and maybe they don't go out the the way that you thought they would go out, because there are some teachers that will not use them. And are districts prepared for that? Because there will be some teachers that are gonna hold out and say, no, I don't wanna use this platform, I don't feel comfortable. Uh, you know, we Whatever the case may be. And so I I think like you mentioned, like since the very beginning from your your introduction, it all comes back to that human piece. And and I I think that we we're missing it. I mean, as as big as the problems are, and uh that should be magnified, that human connection, that human touch, those conversations. But for some reason we we're we're just missing it. We we've got these visors on that we don't see that it comes down to that and having those conversations as difficult as it may be, finding those adjustments, like you mentioned, learning how to as a leader improvise, adapt, overcome. If there's a teacher that doesn't want to use AI, okay, no biggie. So if you don't want to use AI, you don't want to use this Gemini gem to help you for school uh, you know, parent emails or parent phone calls, no worries. Here, let me create a template for you that you can use that, you know, you just fill in the blanks, whatever the case is, you offer that to them. You know, it it it's it's gonna be like that for a while, maybe, but again, it comes back to like you mentioned, and you've said it several times here, which I think is something that you've emphasized a lot, is really getting to know the people around you, making those connections. So I've absolutely have loved this conversation and I've loved your just your passion for it. And and it's so interesting because everything that you mentioned, we we talk a little bit about that tech, but you find that human connection to it, which is in the end the the most I think uh important underlying part in anything that we do in education. So, Dr. Martin, thank you so much. I really appreciate your time. I really appreciate your passion. Your shares were fantastic. Thank you so much for just giving us a little bit of time this evening for not only myself as my personal professional development, but for our listeners too as well, that will get to enjoy this also. So thank you so much. And before we wrap up, uh Dr. Mark, can you please let our audience members know how it is that they might be able to connect with you if they have maybe some questions or maybe they just want to reach out and and find you on socials. How might they find you?

Dr. Mark Zeiler 46:23

Yeah, and I'd love you to reach out. Uh, LinkedIn would be the easiest place to find me. Uh Mark Zeiler, and it's at leading to inspire.

Dr. Alfonso Mendoza 46:31

Perfect. Excellent. But we'll I'll make sure that I'll link all your socials and everything in the show notes. So for audience members, they can definitely click and they can connect with you immediately.

Edu Kryptonite And The Billboard Truth

Dr. Alfonso Mendoza 46:41

All right. Well, before we wrap up, as you know, if you've seen the show, we always wrap up with these last three questions. So hopefully you're ready. So here we go. As we know, every superhero has a pain point and a weakness. So for Superman, that kryptonite weakened him. It was that pain point. So for you, Dr. Mark, I want to ask you in the current state of education, what would you say is your current edu kryptonite?

Dr. Mark Zeiler 47:08

Human disconnection. You know, because as classrooms become more digitally connected, there's just a greater risk of us forgetting that learning is fundamentally human. It's important for us to keep the perspective that technology isn't the destination. You know, it's the vehicle that's open to get to where we want to go, but the mission has to remain human-centered. So my edgy cryptonite would be if we're optimizing for the tools instead of the people. And right now we just had the huge opportunity to automate the transactional so that we can make more room for the relational, you know, that we've been discussing. So students, families, educators, leaders, freeing up more time for them to actually connect with each other, inspire each other, and transform each other. So yeah, we we love the shiny tools. I do think they're valuable and we'll continue to use them to amplify humanity. But at the end of the day, the future of education is gonna be led by people. And, you know, Dr. Fonge, I was thinking about this. You know, we can talk about college and career readiness, and we can talk about how the workforce has changed and whatnot. But to this question, I would say, you know, for students, what are they gonna remember about their educational experience? Are they gonna remember the tools they used, or are they gonna remember the people that they met and the relationships they built and the way those authentic connections made them feel and believe and grow? So that's the power of human connection, and that's why human disconnection is my cryptography.

Dr. Alfonso Mendoza 48:43

Love it. That is such a wonderful answer. Thank you so much for that. That is a knowledge nugget there that I cannot wait to share. All right, Dr. Mark, next question. If you could have a billboard with anything on it, what would it be and why?

Dr. Mark Zeiler 48:59

My billboard would simply say you are the technology. Because again, so many of our conversations in education revolve around tools and platforms and which initiative and what tool to adopt. But um we are the greatest technology ever created, you know, and so the fundamental truth as technology continues to accelerate, and I was thinking about this, Fonz, we're gonna have humanoid robots, they're being mass-produced, and these are gonna be integrated into society much sooner than than we believe. We just we have to hold on to that fundamental truth, and that is that humans are the most adaptive, creative, empathetic, and transformative technology that's ever been created. That's why you are the ultimate technology.

Dr. Alfonso Mendoza 49:47

Nice, excellent. Great point. And my last question for you is if you could trade places with anyone, and I mean anyone, oftentimes they'll ask, well, can it be does it do they have to be alive? I say it could be anyone, historical figures, past figures. Who would you trade places with and why?

Dr. Mark Zeiler 50:06

The one and only Jennifer Womble, FETC chair since 2010, and she's built the most respected platform in education. And we're talking about the largest gathering of independent ed tech in North America. And this last year at 800 speakers, and it's the largest gathering of K-12 decision makers. So people sometimes talk about her. She's the EF Hutton of EdTech because what she speaks, people listen. And so I had the privilege of being a speaker and key opinion leader at FETC. So I saw firsthand that what she does is deeply rooted and human connection. You know, she's just constantly running around, building relationships, forging alliances, and finding ways to keep humans at the center of conversations. And she's just got a knack for bringing the right people into the right conversation to push education forward. She always struts meaningful innovation and scalable innovation, and she does it so well. So I love to trade places with her for a day. Uh, my my biggest interest in it would be just to study the craft of someone who has garnered so much trust and community and impact.

Dr. Alfonso Mendoza 51:24

Yeah, absolutely. And that's a great choice. Everything that you said was pretty spot on. I I just love I got to meet her at TCA, uh, or was it Istia? I can't even remember, but she was walking around, got to meet her, and then immediately she's like, hey, there's somebody that I want you to meet. And so she was just there connecting the dots, connecting the people, and it's just fantastic. But you're absolutely right, just to kind of know and learn that craft because it's it she makes it seem easy, but I know that there's a lot of work that goes into that too, as well. So great choice. Excellent. Well, Dr. Mark, thank you again. I really appreciate it. It was great that we were able to have this wonderful conversation. Like I mentioned to you, like I've been a follower for a long time, just kind of lurking around in the comments and things of that sort. But it's just great to have this one-on-one conversation and really get to hear from you, your experience, more than anything, your heart, because I I think that's one of the things that I I love that I I got from you is that human connection and that importance of that. And so thank you because that definitely uh just comes through this conversation. So for all our audience members that are going to be listening to this show, I think it's gonna be something that is gonna be worth their while and just uh, you know, kind of think things through and and not losing focus of that human connection, which is so important. So thank you so much for your time.

Dr. Mark Zeiler 52:53

I look forward to staying connected, and I really look forward to meeting you in person at a conference soon.

Dr. Alfonso Mendoza 52:58

Absolutely. That would be great, and we'll definitely keep in touch because this is definitely not uh just a one-stop conversation that I can definitely see where we can take this to as well. So thank you so much

Where To Connect And Final Thanks

Dr. Alfonso Mendoza 53:09

for your time. And for our audience members, thank you again for listening to our show. Please don't forget to visit our website at myedtech.life where you can check out this amazing episode and the other 367 wonderful episodes. I think it'll be 367 or 368 by the time this one comes out. But regardless, thank you so much for engaging with our content. So visit our website, give us a like, share, a follow. Please follow us on all socials at myed tech life. Visit our sponsor page too, because we do have uh edge uh we have a book creator uh three-month coupon there. So if you want to get access to a premium account, please make sure you visit there as well. And you can also be uh part of and sponsoring our show too, as well. We do have you know a little buy me a coffee there. So if you want to support our show, you can totally do that. And we definitely appreciate it. As you know, that goes back into the show so we can continue running and gunning and making sure that we bring you some great quality content with some amazing guests like Dr. Mark today. So thank you as always for all of your support. Thank you to all our sponsors, and my friends, until next time, don't forget, stay techy.