Bonus TCEA Episode: Simplifying EdTech for Teachers & Amplifying Learning for Students

Dr. Alfonso Mendoza: 0:12

Thank you so much for being here in this session as we have this wonderful discussion simplifying ed tech for teachers and amplifying learning for students. My name is Dr. Alfonso Mendoza, or you can call me Dr. Fonz. I am the host of the My EdTech Live Podcast. So if you're familiar with the podcast, thank you so much for your support as always. And today I have two amazing guests that I've had the honor to meet. And we're going to have some great discussion here. And like I said, in case any of you do have some questions later on, we'll leave it open for some questions. So you can ask our uh panel experts here or myself, or maybe just if you have some thoughts or anything that you want to share yourself, feel free to do so. This is one of those uh open spaces, safe spaces where you can go ahead and share um what it is that you like and your experience. So by by all means, I definitely encourage that. And today I am joined by Elena Clecker, Clecker, right? Elena Clecker, don't worry, we can edit all of that. Elena Elena Clecker and Spencer Wright this morning. So I am gonna give them a little bit of time to introduce themselves and give you a little bit of background and what their context is within the education space. So, Elena, we'll go ahead and start with you.

Elaine Kloecker: 1:26

Okay, um, I am a technology integration coach at Barbers Hill ISD in Mont Bellevue, Texas. And the best way to describe where we are located is east of Houston. We're kind of in between Houston and Beaumont. Um, I was just telling uh Spencer over here that we are the last Buckies before you get to Louisiana. So if that's not a Texas, you know, description, I don't know what it is. Um, but I work in a we're a pretty small district. Um we've got eight campuses, and there are three of us on our instructional tech team, and we kind of divide and conquer um our campuses, and um it's that's a great job. I love it. Excellent, Spencer.

Spencer Wright: 2:03

So I'm Spencer Wright, I'm a robotics teacher. Um, I've also been a math teacher. This is my ninth year teaching. Uh teach at Jacksonville, ISD, which not Florida, Jacksonville, Texas, small town just south of Tyler. Um, but yeah. Excellent.

Dr. Alfonso Mendoza: 2:20

All right. So today's conversation, like we talked about, as we know, since 2022, we have seen obviously an uptick in AI, generative AI tools, generative AI tools in education. And it seems from year to year, you know, there are more tools that are coming out, uh, usually, you know, almost monthly, or we're seeing new things. And for the most part, one thing that I have noticed since 2022 is that some of the major players within our education space have already kind of separated themselves from others and they're pretty well established. Now, we know that a lot of these tools are in the classrooms in many districts across not only Texas, but across the nation, across the world. But what we want to talk about a little bit today is how teachers are feeling at the moment in the classroom, too, as well with so much influx of technology. And like I was mentioning to our amazing guests today, usually coming into these conferences, everybody has all the links, everybody has the free signups, the freemiums, the freemium sign up. You know, you get your 30 days, they get you hooked, they get you excited, they got all the bells and whistles, and then when all that's gone, it's like, oh, now what? Like now I feel like like I don't have that tool that might make a difference. So we want to talk about that also as well. That many of these tools, they do promise to save teachers' time, but often, many times, of the complexity of those tools, sometimes they may not live up to those promises. So, my first question here to Elena and Spencer is from your perspective, it what makes a tea a tool something that is easy to use for a teacher coming in on a Monday morning? From your experience, can you describe that type of tool?

Elaine Kloecker: 4:13

Um, yeah, I think that the pedagogy has to be first and foremost that the that has to be at the forefront of your instruction. What's best for your students? Um, what's easiest for your teachers to weave into their instruction? We don't want something that's just shiny and flashy that I think and that's what we get kind of caught up in these conferences, right? Is like, oh my gosh, that's so cool. And that person was so nice when they gave me that code. And but we really need to think about, you know, data privacy and student safety, and then exactly how are you weaving this into your instruction to benefit what's best for your students. How about you, Spencer? What has been your experience?

Spencer Wright: 4:48

So I really think something that is really easy to use. There are tools out there that are very complex and can do just about anything, but it takes a PhD and someone who basically designed it to know how to use it. And that's not always what a teacher in a classroom needs. They need something that's going to be easy to use, intuitive, help support them rather than making their job more difficult, more complex. It needs to focus on making their job easier. That way they can focus on their students.

Elaine Kloecker: 5:16

My teammate actually um had a good point the other day, and she was like, if it's more than two clicks away, like I don't want anything to do with it, you know. And and I know that some things like it takes me more than two clicks to get into my email, but you know, we don't need to click here, click here, click here, and we're spending all of our time wasting instructional minutes and you know, not delivering the best instruction. Excellent.

Dr. Alfonso Mendoza: 5:36

That and that's a great point. That's something that in the years that I was working at a district as a learning and technology coordinator, it was if it's three clicks or more, like that's it. I don't need it. You know, I need to get there in instantaneously, quickly. And again, many times obviously those dashboards can be very confusing. They give you a lot of data, but is the data accurate? How do you really read the data? And how do you know that this is really a true measure of how the student is doing? So those are some of the things that we do see. Now, obviously, we are here. The exhibit hall is going to be open today. There's gonna be plenty of vendors giving away all of the swag, all the shiny stuff, all the codes and everything. But I want to ask you, and we'll start off with you, Spencer. We know that there are many tools that are marketed in a specific way for teachers and educators. Again, obviously, number one, they always say we want to take something off the teacher's plate. They always do. Uh, is it really happening? That's up to the teacher, also. That's something that could be very objective depending on teacher to teacher. But I want to ask you, uh Spencer, in your experience, what might be some of the marketing disconnect that from these companies, the way that they market to teachers and the way that teachers really feel about the ed tech platforms.

Spencer Wright: 6:55

So I think the I think a big difference is whether something is useful or not. I think it's sometimes whenever they're marketing it, it's the way they see it. And they've sometimes they've never been in a classroom, and it's not always like, oh, yeah, that's a great tool in theory, but in reality, that's not exactly what happens, or that's not what we need. And what we need sometimes is sometimes a disconnect of from them.

Elaine Kloecker: 7:25

No, and I would agree, I think that you know, there's with all of the AI that is in every product that we have nowadays, it's like, oh, look at how great this interactive component is for your students. But we have to make six copies so that you can assign it to six of your classes. And the teacher's like, wait, what? Like, like this is great, but I need the works, the workflow to make sense as well. Yeah.

Dr. Alfonso Mendoza: 7:46

So, and you mentioned a very interesting point, uh, Spencer, that many times obviously the companies creating platforms, uh, you know, I don't think that they come in with that really good intention, but at the same time, they may not understand the day-to-day from teachers. Not every school district is going to be the same, not every teacher is gonna have the same need, or grade level is gonna have the same need. And I think for the most part, they try their best to share that right across and have tools that are readily available. But I do truly feel and believe that maybe they there needs to be a lot more teacher feedback and input. And I know for the most part, you know, when we do go to conferences, there are many vendors that are out there that will meet with educators, teachers, or you've got your ambassador groups, you've got your uh innovator groups and things of that sort where the companies really take to heart what some of that feedback is and start making those changes. And I think that that's something at least to say for some of those major players that they are listening to what teachers need to closely help them at least offload some of that extra stuff that could easily be taken care of. But at the same time, we don't want to lose sight as far as let me just automate my classroom where I can just sit down and let the tech be my tier one instruction. So, my next question to you would be how do you feel about that as far as maybe the perception that a lot of the companies might be selling this as here is your solution, and just kind of leaving it at that, you know, as far as pedagogy is concerned, uh, teacher needs. So, Elena, we'll start with you.

Elaine Kloecker: 9:32

Well, I just think, you know, since COVID, you know, teacher, like like you said, teachers have so much on their plates and they have had for years. And, you know, in the spring of 2020, when everyone was praising teachers, oh my gosh, I don't know how you do this. And like people kind of got an inside look at all that teachers had on their plates, and then that plate just kept getting piled on and piled on. So these companies are almost like, and not saying all of them, because there's some amazing companies out there, but they're almost preying on it, where they're like, Oh, you're so overwhelmed that you have so much on your plate. Look at this, this will grade this for you, or look at this AI is going to grade all of your students' written assignments for you, and it's like, whoa, whoa, whoa, hold on. Like, you still need to be the teacher and you still need to lay eyes on what your students are doing and have that human interaction because that's what teaching is as human-centered.

Spencer Wright: 10:23

Exactly. Spencer, how about yourself? What are your thoughts? So, kind of pig back off of what she said. Um, the teacher still needs to be the teacher in the room. And I think a lot of these companies are marketing it in a way where teachers think, oh, this is can gonna do my job for me. It shouldn't do your job for you. It should help you do your job better. It should help you to take off time from tasks that you do repetitively, and then you can go back and really focus on whatever output it's giving you, whether it be, like she said, grading something. You can then go look at those papers and say, okay, let me look at just those students that struggled. How can I help them? Or who are the students that are really successful? How can I challenge them more?

Elaine Kloecker: 11:08

Yeah, and I'm not knocking AI, I love AI, but like I've told my team before that AI has almost made me the teacher that I've always wanted to be. Like I'm able to ask the questions that I never would have thought to ask before. I'm able to personalize the instruction better and hit the needs of every most students in my classroom better than I ever could have before, because AI is looking at those data insights and you know, helping me write those higher level thinking questions.

Dr. Alfonso Mendoza: 11:33

Excellent. And so one thing that I do want to add to that that you said is you still have that teacher eye. Now, uh, this is just an anecdote from my experience. Um, and my fear and and the slight fear of that automation, where a lot of the tools you just crank stuff in there, you know, and then it'll give you that output, uh, your students' grades and so on. Um, I my fear of that automation or that extreme automation when you don't have eyes on that is first of all, like when our first when our district we weren't we came into Google Workspace, and then all of a sudden it's like, you know, we don't know how to use this yet. So teachers were having to add students there manually or give them the codes and things of that sort. The following year, they automated everything to where the teacher logs in, they have all their roster set up, all the classroom set up. All they do is just click accept. Students are already there, and then slowly started seeing that year after year, now our books are tied to the Google Classroom. Uh, this platform is tied to Google Classroom. This platform is tied to Google Classroom. And so what happens is the assignments are given, are given, there's they're sent out to the students, they complete it, they click turn in, and then all of a sudden, whatever's in the grade book all of a sudden goes into the student management system or the SIS where all the grades are. And we slowly started seeing that teachers no longer had eyes on those grades. It was, well, it's completely automated. I don't need to look. Like they got a 70, that's a 70. If they got a 60, that's a 60, but they weren't really taking the time to say, okay, why did they get the 60? And what might I be able to do to improve the learning? You know, kind of turning the mirror on myself and saying, okay, what other instruction or supplements can I do for the students? And so, like Elena was saying, it's you still need to have eyes on those outputs that the platforms are giving you, as much as it is saving you time. But at the end, is it really working for the student? Because then it could just turn all about me and be like, Well, I'm done. I did what I needed to do. If they are not passing, you're going into a 504 IEP meeting and then they ask you, well, what can the student do better? What are you going to tell them if you haven't even been looking at the data? It's like, well, they just need to study more. They need to come into tutoring. But show me some artifacts. Is there any growth from beginning of the year to the end of the year? So those are some things that are definitely very important.

Elaine Kloecker: 13:59

No, and I would agree. And I think, you know, when a student does work in Google Classroom, like they're answering a short constructed response on a Google slide. You know, when you think about the teacher having to go in and grade that Google slide, we're going into Google Classroom, we're clicking on the student, then we have to click on each individual assignment. And it makes it difficult to, you know, to actually grade that work. But like that's something that could be done on paper, you know, a a short constructed response. I know that our students have to type, obviously, for star and things like that. But like that is also something that can be done on paper, and how much easier is that to grade?

Dr. Alfonso Mendoza: 14:32

So, Spencer, my question to you is like, as we know, we we talk about tools, and sometimes the complexity of these tools, some may be overly complex. And for me, working with teachers and instructors, it's usually a good tool, is not necessarily going to be front and center, but it's a tool that's gonna kind of fade into the background and gives the teacher the spotlight because at the end of the day, it's your classroom, you're the tier one instructor, you're the one that's sharing that knowledge and know-how to student. So, um, Spencer, I want to ask you in your perception or your experience, how how would you describe a good tool that just kind of fades into the black into the background and still allows that teacher to have that spotlight?

Spencer Wright: 15:48

So, um with a good tool, I think it needs to be something that helps support the teacher and give the teacher new ideas or new insights or new ways to do something that they already were doing. Um, I think to my own classroom with differentiation, with um giving new ideas because I'm a robotics teacher. I I need new ideas of how can I set this up in a way that's different, a way that challenges the students, that pushes them to succeed and learn more and do more in the classroom. And using it doesn't necessarily always go up on the screen. The students always don't always see it, but it's the things like coming up with new ideas for projects, new ideas to ways to make it interesting to them, new ways to um tear it up and tear it down to meet the levels that are my students are at.

Elaine Kloecker: 16:47

Yeah, it's that modification and redefinition, you know, type of instruction. And I would agree in that too. And then saying something that gives that immediate feedback to students too. So when you're thinking about like a pair deck, for example, where you're doing a live learning lesson and you're able to see your students' work in live time and give them feedback in live time, or if you're doing um a space or a chat boost with brisk and those students are able to get that immediate feedback from that from that response.

Dr. Alfonso Mendoza: 17:15

Excellent. Yeah, and I definitely agree with that. I think oftentimes is the student-facing tools are just sometimes very difficult or sometimes can be very distracting, or even the user experience, uh the user interface can just be very confusing for students. As many times what will happen is, and we were talking about this earlier, it's like, okay, your student may need some remediation, just put them on this platform for 30 minutes and they log in and they're answering questions. But do they really understand what happens is it's like a duplication of efforts. If they didn't understand it the first time with the tier one instruction and they weren't getting that immediate feedback, let's say from a teacher having the teacher eyes to saying, okay, just here, practice this, but you never resolve the issue here for them to practice here. So if they're practicing it wrong here, they're still practicing wrong here. They're getting the answers from you know the platform because it'll show them the answers, but are they truly understanding and they're the engagement of it? So oftentimes I feel that many times it could be the tool that's in front of them is just really overwhelming and it's the star of the show. But as teachers are be are we being responsible enough to look at the usage and the data and is it really allowing our students to grow? And especially like Spencer said, tearing up or tearing down as needed and really just kind of falling by the wayside and still the teacher being front and center. So, kind of coming into that question or that comment that we were talking about earlier, those uh platforms where you come in, do your 30, 30 problem store 30 minutes per day. Um, as far as ed tech is concerned, what are some things that ed tech companies might be able to do better to really understand the needs of the classroom teachers at this given time?

Elaine Kloecker: 19:06

That's a tough one, just because the needs of our students are ever changing. And I feel like in six months we'll have a different conversation about what our students really need. Um, but my my teammate said it beautifully um several months ago that there's a difference between compliance and engagement. You know, our students, yes, they're on their their programs for 30 minutes to get the documentation that they met these teaks or they mastered these standards or whatever the conversation may be. But is that really changing their learning experience? Is that meeting their learning styles? So I I don't I don't really know how to answer that question, to be honest.

Dr. Alfonso Mendoza: 19:42

No, and it's a valid point. You know, it's very broad because, like you said, things are gonna definitely change. Um, but I think sometimes there's a disconnect, and and sometimes that disconnect and that gap can go wider and wider based on some of the tools and saying, hey, well, we should we should be good here. And many times based on the companies, they may stay stagnant because obviously they have investors or they may move up, maybe the investment round hasn't quite come through. So that's kind of my fear, too, is like them still being disconnected and being very uh just reacting to what is needed and say, okay, we gave you that, but then what else do we need to do to better support you? Spencer, any comments on that?

Spencer Wright: 20:27

Um I think to my own class of the what I teach is robotics and um part of it is the engineering design process. And I always think that you know the best projects that students come up with and they create is comes not in the first four phases, it comes in the last phase of improve. When they go back and say, How can I make this better? How can I keep trying to do more and succeed more? And that's when the where the companies can really go to to try to succeed and do better with their products is figure out how can I make this product better? How can I talk to teachers, see what they need in the classroom, see where they're actually using, what they're not using, and focus on what they really are using and how can you make it better for them, make it easier.

Elaine Kloecker: 21:17

Yeah. And I think a lot of companies are kind of moving towards this like one-stop shop model where like they do everything right. And then the price of everything, of course, triples when they do that. And like, you know, I think about programs, you know, five years ago that were just specialists in this one area. And I'm like, oh, I love going to this platform to use this specifically. But then it's like, okay, well, we're gonna, you know, quadruple our price, but we also can do this and this and this. But wait, I already have a program that does that. And so that's something to consider too.

Spencer Wright: 21:47

Yeah, and I think with some of those companies, it's they're trying to go to be at the one-stop. They'll do everything, and they're so focused on doing absolutely everything, they're not worrying so much about as do we do everything well? Do we do everything in a way that helps the teacher instead of making it more difficult for them to use our product?

Dr. Alfonso Mendoza: 22:08

Yeah, no, and that's a great point. That one stop shop approach. Uh, I've seen it, and I'm sure that everybody here in our audience has seen that in the years that they've been in education. Um, it and it hurts, it really hurts our districts because there could be tools that do, like Elena was saying, that one thing, and they do it very well compared to another platform that may have three. For or all the tools that may not do it as well. But again, it's almost like here we come to conferences, we get all that excitement. It's almost like a dopamine hit for us that we're like, oh, we had this aha moment and I'm gonna go back and I'm gonna go ahead and just throw it at my students. And now they have to log in, they have to remember a new login, now they have to remember a new password. Uh, the teachers are like knocking at the CTO's door and be like, hey, CTO, can you open this up? What's like, well, no, I can't because privacy. Well, no, I need it open because they told me that I would be able to do this and accomplish this and so on. So those are some things that to consider many times. Uh now as we have a plethora of tools that are out there, the duplicity that many districts may have, where they may have something like, you know, a screencastify or an ed puzzle and things of that sort, where some of them may be able to do the same thing, or some or one might do it better than another, then just to really have those conversations and say, okay, which of this better suits us? But oftentimes what'll happen is there are a lot of vocal people within the district too that don't want to lose something. And many times just to say, like, well, I guess because we don't want to get in trouble or, you know, have this issue, we'll still keep it. And we need to think about budgets too as well. Many of you, if you are at the district uh, you know, side, understand that budgets have been very tight now for a while, just depending on what district you're in. And so things to consider is, you know, finding out where your workflow is, what tools are working, looking at that data and making those decisions, which I know sometimes at the end can be very difficult because you may be taking a tool from a teacher that is really using it, but are they all really using it?

Elaine Kloecker: 24:15

Yeah, and it's the teachers that are strong teachers, right? Like, you know, we we have a few in our district that are, you know, top-tier teachers that are, you know, so committed to this one product. And I'm like, it's not the product that makes your scores amazing. It's you. It's the way that you are interacting with your students and the way you love your kids. It's not, you know, this product that's that's changing your scores.

Dr. Alfonso Mendoza: 24:36

Yeah. And we were having an interesting conversation about this. This might get a little spicy, but sometimes, you know, uh the teachers may say, Yeah, that I need this platform, but uh, is it really? And I agree with Elena, it's the tier one instruction. You as a teacher are the one that is really helping the students. At the end of the day, the platform is gonna help supplement some of those gaps or maybe close some of those gaps. But the sometimes we give uh a lot of credit to platforms, but platforms to me, I feel that are that kind of like co-teacher per se, or that additional help and support. They should not be front and center and it shouldn't be at first, then teacher. It's tier one. You are the experts, you're the knowledgeable ones, you're the ones that can read the room. We are the ones that know, understand students, we understand their backgrounds, we hear, we hear them, we try to amplify their voices, we try and help them support. Uh, but sometimes what will happen is there might be teachers that really love a specific product because they may be building their brand off of that product. And so I'm just being a little spicy there too, as well. So, but I'll just throw that in there. But going back now, we talked a little bit about ed tech and all that, but now I really want to talk about amplifying learning for students, you know. So, and this is going to be just a general question, and we'll kind of break it down and go in deeper. But Spencer, I want to ask you, you know, what might be some ways that are that we might be able to amplify learning for students, not too much, not taking tech too much into account, but kind of just focusing more on that tier one um instruction. What can the teacher do better to amplify the learning? But again, not making the app the star of the show.

Spencer Wright: 26:25

So I think to my own classroom and how I use technology within my classroom. So I use physical robots to actually teach the concepts that we're doing, but then I have an additional program that's a web-based program that the students can go on and get extra practice, and they use virtual robots on there, and it allows them to go and really succeed more. And I've set goals with them where they are supposed to get so far in the classroom by the end of the year, and then they earn their golden duck award. So it pushes them to mote and motivates them to do more, to learn more, to practice more, as opposed to being the teacher. So I've heard other from other teachers, oh well, you you just put the kid on the program and then they learn. No, it the program should be to help support them, to help them practice, to get another way, see it another way, but not necessarily do your job. You are still the teacher, you should still be doing the teaching. The students should be learning from you.

Elaine Kloecker: 27:36

Yeah, and you know, our job as educators for K-12 is to prepare our students for the walls outside for the world, I'm sorry, outside of the walls of our classroom. And, you know, since COVID, we've all we've seen this, you know, decline in communication skills, and our students are not able to really talk to each other very well anymore or to talk to anyone. So something that we really encourage in all of our professional development is encouraging teachers to have their students speak to their computer, even, you know, using um podcasting tools or Screencastify where they're having the opportunity to record their voices and strengthen those communication skills because that's something they will need to know how to do when they walk out of high school.

Dr. Alfonso Mendoza: 28:16

Yeah. And and that's something that we talked about too, and amplifying learning for students with obviously there's a lot of fear too, with now the good side about AI is helping teachers, you know, do some of the grading or do some of the tasks and so on. But then also is like, well, if I give my student this topic, this this theme, what they have to write for me, they can do it in like nanoseconds and they're gonna submit it. And maybe a lot of the students' work is gonna look the same because they may be using the same uh platform and the fear of, well, why do I even give an essay? Why do I even give this? So there is that other side of frustration of teachers of, well, what am I gonna do now? Because they could just use AI to write all of this or to do this problem, to do this essay, to do this project. But going back to what Elena was saying is the importance of discourse too in the classroom discussions. You know, there's given a point in time where I think after COVID we came back, and I I have not seen a lot of, well, and again, I'm only speaking in my experience, seen a lot of discussion happening within the classroom, having students talk and work in groups and be able to, again, like Elena was saying, do some podcasting or recording uh themselves, their voices, acquiring the knowledge, the skills, and so on. Because uh I was did a presentation yesterday where it's like 90% of what you learn right now, or even this discussion, like in an hour, you're gonna walk out of here and you're not gonna remember what we talked about, you know, because of the forget of the forgetting curve. You know, if you don't write it, you're gonna forget about it too as well. If you don't practice it, even worse, you're not gonna do that. Uh, my example was I can give you all my phone number right now, and how many of you would be able to memorize that and tell it back to me in about an hour? There might be maybe one or two of you, but again, if we're not talking about it, if you're not internalizing, if you're not writing it down, or at least just kind of remembering things, then the students forget that knowledge. So going back to amplifying learning with students, uh, we talked to Spencer Sand, you know, how he amplifies still using the tech, but continuing to grow with that. But tell me in robotics, um, Spencer, the the learning that students do, I mean, they're working in groups. What is it that you see when the students are actively involved in robotics, working as groups in a team? What are some of those skills that you see them excel in?

Spencer Wright: 31:26

So I see a lot of them excel in the communication, the teamwork, the the job roles and that I give them. So the way I go into um with groups is I tell the kids, okay, well, one of you is gonna be an A student, one of you is gonna be a B student. And your jobs are gonna depend change on the day. Whoever it, whatever day it is, like if it's today is an A day, well, the A student in the group, you're gonna be the programmer today. B student, you're gonna be the person that's telling the A student, hey, the robot did this over here at the project on the mat. It did this, we need to fix this. Okay. So they're going back and they're working on those soft skills of communicating with another person that might not have seen what the robot did necessarily. They might be working back at the desk, we're working on the next step.

Elaine Kloecker: 32:18

And I can imagine there's probably a lot of productive struggle that happens in robotics for sure. Yes. Yeah.

Spencer Wright: 32:24

What I always tell them is it's not the goal, isn't get it right the first time. The goal is get it right eventually. Because I I understand none of them have ever seen robotics before in my classroom. So it's about learning it by the end of the project. Being successful at the end is what matters. I don't care if you fail 10 times, if you're successful in the end, that's what mattered.

Elaine Kloecker: 32:46

Gosh, and that's such a powerful lesson for this generation of kids right now.

Dr. Alfonso Mendoza: 32:52

Alina, oh, how about you? I thought you were going to continue because I want to hear, yeah. I want to hear your insight on that and your experience.

Elaine Kloecker: 32:57

No, I mean, I think what like 100% what he said, but like I've always been an advocate for loud classrooms too. Like, I don't think a quiet classroom is a is necessarily a productive classroom. And so I I encourage students to talk to each other, to collaborate, to disagree. And I think that there are a lot of technology tools that encourage that. But um I just I think that just goes back to strong instruction too, right? Like that's the basics. Like we things that can be done on the substitution level, like let's keep those on paper and out of tech. Um, but if you can actually change the way that your students are learning with technology, absolutely, let's amplify it. But um, but yeah, that's just my thought, of course.

Dr. Alfonso Mendoza: 33:41

No, and I think it's fantastic. And again, uh just a real quick anecdote, you know, and I shared this yesterday with the way that tech, like you said, can help amplify, you know, and or modify assignments. Uh, quiet classroom example here, fifth grade teacher, me, at the time, we only had one Chromebook cart because Chromebooks weren't a hot thing at the time, but we had one Chromebook cart, checked it out all year, had it in my classroom. Everything that I did was group-based discussions. I would do my tier one instruction. I was doing science, social studies, and math at the time. So uh instruction would happen initially. Then day two, you partner up, you get into groups of four. You have your captains, you have your note takers, you have the person that's going to be creating your slide or your final uh assessment that we're gonna be doing. And everything was digital. But the students, there was always a speaking component. So you would have to get up as a group and present, uh, or students, when they did individual work, would have to do like a screen classify. They would do a slide, and then they would go ahead and you know present their knowledge. And this was, again, just a reflection for me, also turning the mirror on myself that if I caught something there, then I can fix any misconceptions, do a small teach and so on. But they're working, they're talking, they're discussing. I had a set of twins. One twin was in another pod, I should say, and then one twin was in my pod. They're emerging bilingual students. The other pod was a sit and get worksheet style kind of pod. My pod was a little louder, you know, they were very active, they were talking, they were discussing. At the end of the year, the twin that was in my classroom actually exited the bilingual program while the sister ended up staying in that program because she did not have the practice and the speaking and the language, because we did so many presentations. Her uh her sister got out of the program, and the parents, you know, there was a discussion that was had, you know, and the parents saying, like, what happened here? Why is one of my twins being able to exit the program while the other one is not? And it was not a very pretty discussion. You know, imagine yourself being a parent of twins or maybe brother and sister, whatever the case may be, and one of your students is one of your children is excelling and the other one is still caught in the program. But what I do is like I second Elena in the importance of having the discussion. And yes, you can use the tech to complement the learning that is occurring, but again, always kind of being part and blending into that learning and not necessarily being the star and again helping the students express themselves, communicate. You've got the productive struggle as they're working in teams. Imagine the different personalities. And I come from a very unique area. Like I'm on deep South Texas, I'm right along the border. And in the district that I worked at is you've got a huge difference in socioeconomic, demographic, and so on. And now you have students that would normally not talk to themselves, or excuse me, not themselves, but talk to each other, I should say. Now they're working together, and then they realize too, it's like, oh, we have a lot more in common than I thought we did. And again, you're building those friendships. So that goes a long way for future ready skills, communication, collaboration, all that great stuff.

Elaine Kloecker: 36:59

Yeah. So I was actually sharing that story that you told us in that session yesterday about the twins with my team. And one of our teachers is actually here presenting today. And she was going through her presentation with us, just kind of working through the last-minute um kinks and such. And she um was sharing all of these wonderful things that she's doing in her classroom. Her students are recording, you know, book talks and they're directing green screen um balloon parades for balloons over Broadway and all of these things. And as a parent that has children in the district that we work in, I was like, my child didn't get to do any of that. But like, how powerful is it that like she's you know, including all of that in her in her classrooms that's enhancing the learning? She had a student that was dyslex that had dyslexia and um was speaking so beautifully on camera. And they were like, she had her recall comprehension was just you know, leaps and bounds ahead of what we thought it would be because she was so comfortable on camera speaking about summarizing books and such, and just thinking about how powerful that would be if it was transferred amongst, you know, the entire grade level among rather than just one classroom.

Dr. Alfonso Mendoza: 38:04

Yeah.

Elaine Kloecker: 38:04

All right.

Dr. Alfonso Mendoza: 38:05

So my next question here, Spencer, I want to start with you. You know, pretend that you can snap your fingers and you can have anything that you can ask for from your district at the district level down from what your experience is, not only in your classroom, but seeing all the classrooms around you, all your colleagues, things what would you say to your district leaders that you need the most to help your students uh be successful in amplifying their learning?

Spencer Wright: 38:39

I would say that it's the tools that I use most often, the things like my additional curriculum that I use online. I I use that on a day-to-day basis to help the students um get extra practice and fill in on the time after they've commit completed their normal project in class. That's such a great tool and it helps them grow so much more. And then they push the district, sometimes then also pushes other things like, hey, we have all these different tools and they were purchased for your classroom. Great. I I don't use that. I I it's not as a bad tool necessarily, but it's just not it it's sometimes it's like worksheets and videos, and it's just like sorry, that's not the best learning strategy. It's there are better things out there like hands-on learning, project-based learning, stuff like that's a lot better. Sorry, I'm not going to use the things that yes, I I understand that there's 10 different teachers that use it. I'm it's not gonna be me.

Elaine Kloecker: 39:45

Yeah, every classroom is different, and I think that like you know, that goes back to the tools too. I just instruction has to be at the forefront, like strong tier one instruction, and then of course meeting the needs of your students that that need those um extra supports or accommodations or whatever that may be. But it's it's a really loaded question, right? Like that's like I mean, I I don't even know if an ed tech tool would be the thing that I would say I want the most. I would say that it's I want my teachers to feel the craft of pedagogy, I think, stronger in their hearts than it would be an ed tech tool to support that.

Dr. Alfonso Mendoza: 40:20

So I guess I would I would say it it seems like it would be like better professional development, you know, in the sense of but professional development not just on the tool, but like you said, on the art of teaching, you know, and I feel that maybe that is something that we kind of just need to look at a little bit more of that pedagogy of it, how the students are learning, how it is that we might improve our practice. Because if we're not improving our practice and continually learning, and we're doing the same thing year after year, I'm gonna quote what Amy Mentor said one day on my podcast. She said, We you suffer from the twadi, which is uh, this is the way we've always done it syndrome. And that is something that is terrible, you know, because from year to year, if you're doing the exact same thing, then how are you yourself as a teacher growing? Because yes, it's nice that you have your lesson plans, you have everything from year to year, you already know what you're gonna teach. And it's great that it's predictable and where you know where you're at, but how are you enhancing that learning to meet the needs of all of the students? So, I mean, professional development is great, but it has to be the right professional development and it has to be even maybe from your own school, finding those teachers that or those pedagogical leaders that are having that success to be able to share. Because as we know, many times people may come in from the outside and they really don't understand your, they don't understand your demographics, they don't understand your needs, and it's really kind of like a cookie cutter approach, which may not be very helpful. Maybe you'll find some little gems there that you can sprinkle to what you're already doing great, but it's not always the case.

Elaine Kloecker: 41:58

Yeah, so we lead um the professional development for technology in our district too, and that we've kind of gone away from the model of like this is how you use this tool. This is how then we've like adjusted our model to where we're showing you how to use instructional strategies with the ed tech tool to support that strategy.

Spencer Wright: 42:17

I I think back to when I was teaching in math. Um, there was a tool that I was trying to get the rest of my teeth, my teachers on my team to use. And I told them, I was like, this is a really great product. I I don't know why we're not using this. And I would try to show them real quick in PD or not PD, on PLC. And they were like, Yeah, that sounds great, but we've been doing this for years. We've been using this product for years, and we still have this product and it's not going anywhere. Whereas now TEA is saying, well, no, now on the state test, we're gonna use this. Sorry. This is a free tool online and it's way cheaper. And all the teachers now went to a PD and they were like, wait, this this is actually really great. I really like this, and we're gonna use this. And I was like, Okay, great. Now that I'm in robotics.

Dr. Alfonso Mendoza: 43:07

Yeah.

Spencer Wright: 43:08

But yeah, it I think it's a lot of it goes back to teachers being willing to go to PD and saying, I want to learn, I want to try to grow and see what's out there, and then not necessarily going back, and the approach shouldn't be try everything. It should be try what you think is going to really work and then really try it and see if it will work and what applies to your classroom as well.

Elaine Kloecker: 43:34

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, every with everything out there, it's so overwhelming. So, like we always in RPD that we start off by saying, like, we want you to learn one new thing. And it's just if you out of three hours that we're sitting here talking at you and and all of that, if you can pick one thing that you want to take away and work in in your classroom, then I feel like that's a lot more manageable than hey, try to totally you know reinvent the wheel here.

Dr. Alfonso Mendoza: 43:57

Yeah, exactly. And especially here at this conferences that you go to, it's like you know, a water hose, just like a fire hose, right? Like to like everything's coming at you and you're gonna be overwhelmed. There's gonna be like just a huge cognitive overload. But I want to ask you now, with the being here at this conference and what you were talking about, and I'll start with Spencer. So when you come here to TCEA, how what is your best practice that you've seen? Because I know you said like we're gonna learn all the things here, but and you go back, what do you do first to select what it is that you're gonna try and what is your intention behind it? You know, when you're looking at the product, when you're looking at that specific platform, what do you look for specifically?

Spencer Wright: 44:43

So I'm always taking a step back even further. And whenever I sign up for these um conferences, I go in with the mindset of, what am I gonna, what's my goal? What am I gonna get out of this? What sessions am I gonna pick that's gonna help support this goal? So first year, whenever I was went going into robotics, I came to TCEA and I thought, okay, well, I'm gonna learn about all the different offerings out there for robotics. What different robots are there? What could we, what ways, what other items can I use buy? Use to support my classroom. Now, this year, uh the focus is more on me starting to learn how to coach. And now I'm starting to move more into that space, and that's the classes I'm picking, as opposed to just this. I don't know, I'm just gonna sign up for whatever. I I I focus what it is I'm trying to get out of the conference, and then as I'm going through those sessions, I'm really thinking about okay, how can I use this? And I'm taking notes on, okay, go do this later. You don't have to remember it now, but go do this later. And then I just, whenever I get back to school, read back through my notes. Oh, okay, told I told myself to do that. I'm gonna try that out today, I guess.

Dr. Alfonso Mendoza: 46:00

How about you, Alina? I want to know what you what your process is because I know you said you're gonna go back, you're gonna give a PD session. What are you gonna pick and how do you go about it?

Elaine Kloecker: 46:10

Well, I kind of noticed a trend this year, you know, like I the last two years at TCA, if there was a session that did not have AI in the title, then you were like, oh my gosh, that's a miracle. But like I do feel like this year it's been like not like dialed back, but it's almost like the human-centered part of AI is like at the forefront. Like everyone's like, yes, we have AI, but do not remove yourself from the equation. And I feel like that's been the trend of a lot of sessions uh this week. And I I totally support that. And when I go into sessions, I'm I immediately just go like to scope and sequence, like, okay, what are my teachers teaching right now? And how can this be applied in what they're doing? And um, I mean, it's it's impossible for us to know everything about everything, right? And like I I'm partial to like my RLA and social studies teachers, so like the math and the science is hard for me to wrap my mind around sometimes, but I try to think of how this can be applied across content, and that's really my goal every time I come here is to bring something back to the teachers that I feel like could revolutionary or revolutionize, I'm sorry, their classroom. Nice.

Spencer Wright: 47:13

And I also think like whenever we, as a teacher or as an educator, we come to these conferences. Whenever you learn about something, I think it's always a good idea to say, okay, here's a great been a great session where I learned a little bit, but I can always go back and try to learn more. I can go look and see if there's videos online about how I can do more with this product or learn more about this product and really try to leverage what's out there, maybe not necessarily professional development-wise, but maybe like their help resources or whatever it may be to try to learn more about the product later. I don't think coming here and saying, oh, you will spending we're spending all this money on time on going to the conference, you should come back and know everything. No, you should have ideas about everything. And now you're gonna pick what ideas are good and try to implement them well.

Elaine Kloecker: 48:02

Right. Because like an hour-long session is not a long time to, you know, talk about what you've been doing for the last year to to your audience. So, like, yeah, picking something that you remember later that you can come back and apply is absolutely the route to go.

Dr. Alfonso Mendoza: 48:16

Excellent.

Elaine Kloecker: 48:16

All right.

Dr. Alfonso Mendoza: 48:17

Now here's another question. You know, again, knowing a lot of platforms, a lot of tools that are here, and so on. And some of the tools maybe you're like, you know what, maybe this isn't for me, this isn't for us, and maybe you're very good at saying, you know, like I think Spencer gave a great example right now where he said, like, well, this is what we have. It's like, well, you know, this doesn't quite align, but that's Spencer right there. And now, how what advice would you give a teacher when, you know, there's some tools that are out there, and not necessarily that they have to be district tools or anything, but um, you know, just to say, like, hey, no, you know what? I'm good. I I really don't need this tool at this time. What might be some ways that you can help them just not have that fear of saying no? Because oftentimes this teachers say, okay, I'm gonna do it. Just um, yes, I'm gonna do it, but just to say, you know what, nah, this isn't this is this isn't quite fit here.

Spencer Wright: 49:06

So, and this has been something that has been really hard for me to learn is saying no to things. So, um what I always remember is my job and my role is a teacher. It's not use what the district provided me. It's I'm the teacher. I am the person in the room making the decision of how am I going to get these kids to learn X, Y, and Z. I don't necessarily have to use what the district's given me, all of the resources to do it. Now, yes, the dist my district has given me some amazing resources. Do not get me wrong, but there are not all equal. And I don't always have to be using all of them. Certain things that they've given me, they apply great for X. Another thing might be great for Y. And a third thing might be great for Z, but I'm not always using all the resources. I'm picking and choosing what's best in my classroom, what's going to help the kids learn? How can I still be the teacher in the classroom that's making those decisions? It's not the district giving me all these tools and telling me, hey, use all of them every day. It's, hey, we're gonna give you these tools, here are your resources. Now I should be one in the room picking it.

Elaine Kloecker: 50:23

Yeah, my my teammates love the vendor hall at these events, and I always joke that it's my least favorite part because I'm terrible at saying no, because I'm like, I'm sure, yeah, I'll sign up. Oh, like, and because I don't want to hurt anybody's feelings, you know, but that's a terrible approach. So um, but I'm sorry, all joking aside, but um, I I just think, yeah, you pick what's going to work, you know what's going to work, as long as it weaves into your instruction appropriately.

Dr. Alfonso Mendoza: 50:50

Nice. All right. And we are gonna leave some time for QA. We still have about 10 minutes, but last question to end with before um, you know, we open it up. But I want to ask Elena, we'll start with you first. If you can leave teachers or anybody that's here today and anybody that's gonna be listening to the podcast later with one mindset shift around ed tech adoption, as far as what's gonna help protect them, their time, and their students' learning, what advice would you give them?

Elaine Kloecker: 51:21

Um, I would say to remember the art of teaching. You know, we came into this field to impact the lives of little people or bigger people if you're in the at the secondary level. But um that's the true heart of what we do. And yes, absolutely use technology to amplify learning for students and to support the needs of students that have um needs, but just remember, remember what why you came into this role in the first place.

Spencer Wright: 51:51

Spencer? I think the mindset, some of the mindset needs to shift a little bit and when picking a tech and choosing what tools to adopt. I think it needs to be more open conversations with the entire staff. And I think everyone needs to be in the process of deciding what is um being picked because then everybody has a say in it, and everybody can say, okay, well, you know, I was part of this decision, now we're gonna use it. Right. And instead instead of, hey, here's one person up at the district level, hey, I think this is a great tool, we're gonna use it. If the teachers have some say in the process, they're gonna be a lot more bought into it. Because I see a lot of teachers in the trench with me who are just like, oh yeah, that it it's we're given all these tools, and some of them are great, and some of them I've literally never been taught how to use. So why even try to use it? Elena, did you want to add to that?

Elaine Kloecker: 52:50

No, I just I wholeheartedly agree as he was going, I was like, Yes, they're gonna buy into that if they have a say-so, you know. So, no, you're 100% correct.

Dr. Alfonso Mendoza: 52:57

I think for for myself and the episodes that I've recorded recently on the show, one of the major components was really having the right people in the room. And that means that it's not just an executive director that's gonna make the decision for the district, but it's that executive director bringing in those classroom teachers, the you know, paraprofessional support, the special ed staff, and just having everybody in the room to look at what the platform is intended to do, what it will do, and see if it's something that's gonna work out very well for the district, because oftentimes it's one person makes a decision for everybody, but they have not stepped foot in those classrooms to do walkthroughs, to go and see the day-to-day. One year I challenged the curriculum and instruction department, and I was like, ooh, they they didn't really like that. But I said, you know what? One day, one year, like just go and follow a first grader. Don't take your cell phone, don't take your laptop, sit down in the classroom, follow them the whole day, and see if what you're planning on doing is gonna effectively help the teacher, or if it's something that is gonna just completely ruin that flow of that day. So, as an administrative leader that is out there, you need to take into account those things as well. Don't just be that ultimate decision maker. You need to have all stakeholders at the table, and that could be very important and very detrimental to the success of not only your teachers, but the success of your students. Because if your teachers are successful, the students are going to be successful too, as well. All right. Does anybody have any questions or any comments that they would like to share or any questions for our guests at all, whatsoever? Anyone? Yeah, all right. Here we go. This is Chris. Here you go, Chris. Uh thank you. Um as an ed tech for my building in my district, I feel a lot of the times we treat the teachers differently than we say the students need to be taught. So they buy this new thing and they go, here you go. And there's some sort of PLC or PD training time that's like an hour for this brand new piece of tech that is like, you're gonna write a web-based, you know, a website for your classroom with this program. And we just go, well, but there's a there's there's a module on Canvas for you to be able to know how to do this thing, or there's videos that you can go watch. And we say we shouldn't do that to our students, but then we do it to our teachers for the new stuff. What would be a good district policy, or what do you do if you have something good in your district that you do to roll out new tech for teachers to really understand it before they start to implement it in their classrooms? Great question.

Spencer Wright: 55:39

So it's not my job, but it's my friend's job on campus. Um, he's the technology strategist, and most of his job isn't necessarily going out and giving PDs. It's a blend of that, yes. But he's also constantly being available. He has time each day where he sets aside and says, if you have questions, if you need help, if you need to learn something about something, I'm here during this time. I'll help you. And he goes around all day long and he'll help you if you need help. If all you have to do is shoot him an email and say, Hey, I need help on this platform I use in classroom.

Elaine Kloecker: 56:17

I love that. So we're very very intentional about the way we plan PD for our district. And um, we like I said, we're fortunate enough to deliver technology PD for our district. And um, we do a staff survey at the beginning of every school year, like which you know, PD was the most impactful for you during the summer months or whenever you did take your PD for that exchange time. And we do take that into consideration when we plan our PD. Um, but I and this this we're gonna talk spicy here. I am not a fan of online PD. I just feel like it's an easy way for like I know that when I do my safe schools training at the beginning of every year, it's click, click, click to get through it, let it run in the background. And I feel like a lot of if we give our teachers that option to just click through online PD, then they're not actually taking anything away from it. When we are hosting PD, we are intentional about the strategies with what how we deliver that tool and hopefully, hopefully modeling proper instructional strategies for them to use in the classroom.

Spencer Wright: 57:17

Yeah, to piggyback off what you said, I think more hands-on instruction is better. I mean, we say to our teachers, hey, hands-on learning is the best. And then we turn around, we do online training, and it's like, what are we doing? So I think better professional development should be included where it's more hands-on, they get time to practice to use it, to try it out, and then come back later and have a follow-up session. Okay, what were your questions? What went great? What went wrong? How can we help you to be better and use this product the way it was intended?

Dr. Alfonso Mendoza: 57:52

I I know at uh the district that I work at is they had the TOT model. So every campus had somebody there to help support that rollout. Now, again, being very conscientious of uh teacher time, especially their conferences that are short, like the the our elementary conferences, they're I think it's like 30 minutes that they get only, and they have a PLC that's like 30 minutes also. And so having to maximize that time because we don't want them to stay somebody is on there, you know, on site. So that's a fantastic part that's really helped out. But I think that this goes above just even the campus level. This has to be at a district level where the administrators have to know and say, hey, how many minutes are in a day? And again, if they don't do walkthroughs and they don't go see how your schools are flowing and what goes on on the day-to-day, then how are they gonna know how to schedule this and just say, oh, well, just give them that time during their conference? What if it's 45 minutes? What if it's 30 minutes? How are you gonna go ahead and digest all of that information of a new platform and then be expected to use it successfully? And then the usage isn't there because they don't feel comfortable with it and they don't have anybody that is there. So it's something that that would change the last two years is in the summer, we have what we call the level up university. So it's a two-day full event similar to kind of like a TCEA flow where you have the teachers that are there. And then, of course, if you have those major vendors, they come in, they are there, and they'll provide that longer hands-on training of what is going to be rolling out for that next year or the continuation of what is there. So sometimes you have to get creative. I know we have district PD days also, as well, where you know you're you're signing up, you're showing up, and you're being trying to be as intentional about it. But at the end of the day, I think it's as district leaders, you need to know where the time is because teachers also need their time to prepare. And that's something that is uh very important for sure. That's a big thing. Yes, yes, here you go, Baran.

Audience Member 1: 59:55

I think that goes back to like what you originally asked them in terms of like the bright and shiny things, because the district level people are hearing from the teachers. We want this, we want this, we want this. And so I think sometimes the decision of what they decide to roll out for the year may not be timely or the best choice for the district. And so I think that goes back to like making sure that you are including the right stakeholders, because like if you roll it out and you're rolling out like three new things district-wide, that is going to add more to the teacher's plate and overwhelm them. And so I think being intentional, like you talked about earlier, with that, and then making sure that you have systems in place to not just be a training at the beginning of the year and no support. Um, when you asked what could you what would you pick? Probably more support staff that actually went in the classrooms to support teachers. Because I've seen that in multiple districts around our community, is that there's a lot of people outside of the classroom, but they're not truly supporting the teachers in terms of the day in and day out, in terms of the live coaching with these teachers that may be alternative certified or not fully certified. So I think that that's really critical too, in terms of just the whatever the district decides to roll out, like make sure there's buy-in and then the teachers have the time to implement it properly before jumping to the next big thing.

Erin Audience Member 2: 1:01:23

All right. And I would just piggyback on that too, is like, and I think he mentioned it with having the goals, even just when he comes to the conference, but having a goal for what we are wanting to happen for our district at all. Um, because if, you know, sure, yes, we want to implement this tool and that's great. But we've got these three new things. Okay, well, what is the goal with those three new things? Why are we getting those three new things? Was it just because it was bright and shiny and five people said it was great? Is there an ultimate goal that we're trying to reach with it? Like how, you know, it's it's definitely can you can go all over the place if you don't know what it is that you truly want to get out of the tool?

Audience Member 1: 1:02:07

They need to know like the teachers want to know what their expectation is. Like, do I need to use it? Or like Spencer, is it okay if I don't use it? And then just having that because not knowing the clear expectation confuses the teachers and adds more to their plate and their whole social emotional um well-being.

Dr. Alfonso Mendoza: 1:02:26

Excellent. Yeah, I agree with you. And so instead of offloading and taking something off their plate, and this is the way that I always saw it at the district level, and I'm like, what do we do this? It's like, oh yeah, yeah, we're gonna take this off of your plate, but then we're gonna add these other two things on there. I was like, and then they're well, we took it off their plate, but you put two others on there, like the two other things. So it's just being very cautious about those things, too, as well. Does anybody else have one last question? A couple? Sean, here you go. Thank you, Sean.

Chris Audience Member 3: 1:02:52

Yeah, I guess this is less a question, more a comment, extending on what we're just talking about. But sometimes in some of the sessions I've been to in the past year with all the emphasis with the AI-based ed tech, sometimes I feel like there's such a focus on this. What it does is it saves you time. It's the efficiency of it. And sometimes it feels like the push can be, oh, this saves us time, it gives us efficiency to do these other things we want to do. But it kind of feels like it's you're treating a symptom. You're not treating the fundamental problem, which is the like, do is what we actually need more support staff in the classroom, or do we need more dedicated PLC time, or do we have overburdened classrooms? Right. And there's only so much this tool can do to try to fix that problem. It can maybe make your life a little bit more efficient and you get a little bit more time, but it doesn't actually fix that fundamental issue. And that's sometimes the thing I feel in some of these PDs and presentations I've been given is like this is nice, but is it actually addressing the fundamental issue that's really going on in the classroom?

Dr. Alfonso Mendoza: 1:03:53

Well, and that's a great comment because like we need to talk about too is like we're addressing these things, and what happens, I think, is it you're putting a band-aid over a band-aid, and then it becomes another band-aid, and you're never really getting to the root of the issue. And by not getting to the root of the issue, you're just spending a lot of money and you're spending a lot of teachers' time on these initiatives, but you never really got to the root of the problem. And I think that's something that also needs to be talked about, and even at the district level, and having those district leaders saying, okay, like if this is what we're spending, and we're spending $500,000 on this platform to teach us about digital security, but nobody's using it and we're still having these issues. Is it really worth that money? Uh, what is the issue? What is the problem? What can we do at a granular level instead of just, hey, here's $500,000, take it. And the expectation is that everybody's gonna use it, everybody's gonna go through it, and everything's gonna be fine. And it's not always the case. Or for a math platform, an ELA platform, the exact same thing. It's like, oh, they're gonna get more practice with 30 minutes. Oh, their scores are gonna go up, but they practice those 30 minutes and they're still getting the questions wrong because there's no immediate feedback or follow-through. So, do we need more support? You know, now we need to work on tier two. Do we have tier two staff that can help, you know, supplement the tier one support and things of that sort? So yeah, it definitely uh is is something that we can open up and we can continue talking here. But I want to thank every single one of you that was here. I really appreciate your time. I appreciate your questions, your comments. Thank you so much to Elena and Spencer. Please give them a round of applause. They did a fantastic job today. And this episode will air probably maybe even today. I'll put it up there and I'll tag TCEA on it. But thank you so much for uh being here with me, Dr. Fonz from My EdTech Live. So you can check out the website at myedtech.life where you can check out this episode and other wonderful episodes where I promise you you will find some little gems and nuggets that you can sprinkle on to what you are already doing great. So thank you very much, guys. And until next time, don't forget, stay techie.