Episode 326: Teodora Pavkovic

Fonz Mendoza: 0:30

Hello everybody and welcome to another great episode of my EdTech Life. Thank you so much for joining us on this wonderful day and wherever it is that you're joining us from around the world. Thank you, as always, for all of your support. We appreciate all the likes, the shares, the follows. Thank you so much for all of your support. We appreciate all the likes, the shares, the follows. Thank you so much for engaging with our content. We appreciate all the comments on all our social media platforms. Thank you, thank you so much.

Fonz Mendoza: 0:53

As you know, we do what we do for you to bring you some amazing conversations here into our education space, to continue to grow together. And I want to give a big shout out to our sponsors. Thank you so much to Book Creator EduAid, yellowdig and Pocket Talk. Thank you so much for your support. Because of you, we're able to bring you these amazing conversations. So thank you for that and believing in our mission, in what we are doing, connecting one show at a time and, ladies and gentlemen, today I am excited to welcome to the show a very special guest, theodora Popkovich, who is joining us today and we're going to be talking about digital wellness and we're going to be learning a little bit about the work that she's doing through LineWise and, obviously, talking about some hot topics that are out there right now, such as digital wellness, obviously, student health, screen time and, of course, talking a little bit about AI, chatbots and the implications of AI in the education space or, obviously, in the youth space as well.

Fonz Mendoza: 2:00

So, teodora, I would love to welcome you to the show. How are you doing today?

Teodora Pavkovic: 2:03

So, teodora, I would love to welcome you to the show. How are you doing today? I'm doing great. Thank you so much. I've really been looking forward to our conversation and just really getting to dig into these topics. I spend most of my days thinking and dreaming about these issues and I know that all of our viewers and listeners are as well. So, yeah, so really appreciate being here with you today.

Fonz Mendoza: 2:23

Excellent. Well, teodora, before we dive in, for all our audience members that are listening to us and are just getting to know who you are today and may not be too familiar with your work, trust me, after today, you're definitely going to have a lot more followers on your social media and so on, so I'm really excited about that. But can you please give us a little brief introduction and what your context is within the digital wellness space?

Teodora Pavkovic: 2:48

years and the training after that, thinking about youth psychology, adult psychology, issues like anxiety and depression in particular, and kind of working towards really figuring out new and novel ways of helping people deal with these issues, and a lot of my influences come from areas like cognitive behavioral therapy, things like positive psychology as well. It's a really, I would say, big fuel that adds sort of to the fire of the work that I've done over the past couple of decades when it comes to helping people deal with some of these issues that really we all have to deal with on a daily basis. This work, in a sort of roundabout way, led me to becoming increasingly interested in children and technology. I've always been interested in technology. Children I've always been interested in technology children I've always been interested in children's development as well and sort of the different factors that influence their development, of course, the role of the parent in that role in the community, and then, sort of around 2015 or 16, that role that technology was increasingly starting to play there as well.

Teodora Pavkovic: 4:02

At the time I was living and working in Singapore. Being a Southeast Asian country, you know a lot of interest in technology, very kind of future focused thinking, a lot of investment in making sure that young people are equipped to handle technology in the best way possible. So I was starting to notice that children were increasingly using technology, especially young children, and especially in the kinds of settings where you maybe wouldn't typically see them using technology prior to that period. So riding the bus, they would typically be sort of daydreaming, looking out the window. Now they had a device in front of them. Waiting in a queue at the airport, they had a device in front of them Having dinner with their family, they had a device in front of them. So the key question for me at that point was is this good or bad? Maybe it's neither, but what kind of impact is it going to have on that parent-child relationship if you essentially sort of insert this filter, if you will, and, in a sense, this disruptor? And so that really got me started on this journey. So it's almost been a decade at this point.

Teodora Pavkovic: 5:01

I've worked across different continents, different countries. I've worked with different populations, so with schools, with parents, with children. I've presented at a lot of different conferences. The most recent one was South by Southwest Education, which I'm sure some of our again viewers and listeners have attended it in the past. It's an incredible place, an incredible gathering of people, and I really appreciated that opportunity to be there and to really talk about the imperative of parental engagement when it comes to children's online safety and I know that's something that we're going to dive a little bit deeper into, but that's really where my passion lies how to protect children while really educating and engaging the whole community around them.

Fonz Mendoza: 5:41

And that is something that is truly needed. These conversations are definitely something that has been on the up and up, especially with most recently, you know, and especially you know, I would say, even before COVID, but maybe not as much as after COVID with the screen time. And then now, obviously, as technology advances and the use of artificial intelligence and, of course, the use of chatbots and so on, there tends to be more screen time and so on. But before we dive into that a little bit more, I want to ask you you know about your role as director of well-being at LineWise, so tell me a little bit about what LineWise is and, of course, your experience with LineWise. What is it that you're exactly trying to do? I know you told us a little bit about that passion and that mission of bringing these talks to parents and so on, but tell us a little bit more about the work through LineWise.

Teodora Pavkovic: 6:33

Sure. So one of the things that sort of excites me most about being part of this organization it's now nearly been four years that I've been a part of LineWise is that the fact that someone like me, with the kind of background that I have and the kind of passion and passions that I have, has a role to play in an organization like that, which is incredibly unique among other organizations that are sort of in this children's online safety space. So we are a global leader in this space and children's online safety and digital well-being. We help our partner schools, we partner up with our school districts in the US, around the world as well, to really make sure that we keep children's academic success and their safety and their well-being all of these really sort of key factors when it comes to children's development that we keep it front and center as we support schools in this mission to make sure that, even as children are utilizing their laptops and iPads and you know different types of tools, you know AI that they're having to utilize these days in order to succeed in the academic setting but also, one day, succeed sort of, you know, in the workplace. We don't quite know what that's going to look like, but we know that they're going to need the sort of set of skills we want to make sure that they can utilize these technologies and spend their time in these virtual spaces, but really ensure that they're safe while they're doing that. And so we do this in a number of different ways. We have an online safety and digital wellbeing framework that we use in order to really help our partner districts sort of figure out where they're at in the present moment in terms of sort of fulfilling this mission and then also really help them identify what some of those gaps are.

Teodora Pavkovic: 8:15

And so we think about this through sort of three different pillars, if you will. The first and foremost and basic one is really all around prevention. So, to begin with, how can we predict, sort of prevent rather, some of the key issues that children might encounter? And this is where things like your sort of basic internet filter will fit in. We then move into thinking about okay, we know that we can't prevent these 100%, certain things will sort of come through. So, in that case, how can we actually detect these issues as early as we possibly can? And then, how can we also intervene as quickly as we can to make sure that children aren't engaging in harmful behaviors or, you know, being exposed to sort of harmful things on the internet. Make sure that we're mindful of their well-being.

Teodora Pavkovic: 8:57

And then, ultimately, the third pillar, which is one that I'm particularly excited about and where I mostly fit in terms of my role as a director of well-being, is how do we really engage and educate the whole community again around that child and around the experiences that they're having online and around the fact that they have to use these technologies. We really can't fight against that. I'm not sure we ever could, but we certainly can't right now. So we know that's a must, but how can we make sure that the teachers are mindful and aware of what's going on? How do we make sure that the parents, that the families, the caregivers, are aware of what is going on with their kids online, make sure that they're aware of some of the key online safety risks, but then also make sure that we really empower them as much as possible, and so this is where, for example, our parent education piece comes in.

Teodora Pavkovic: 9:46

We have a community offering that I'm very excited about.

Teodora Pavkovic: 9:49

Some of what I do there is do live sessions with parents, educating them again around the many risks that children can encounter online, but also being very mindful of the benefits, and for me, always the kind of foremost mission or goal is to really leave the parent feeling empowered, leave them feeling confident, because that is one of the key, if not the key issue that I see nowadays and when it comes in general to parenting in the age of technology, is parents really don't feel confident to do this and so then they often just kind of tune out because it's really overwhelming and it can be incredibly scary.

Teodora Pavkovic: 10:25

I know a lot of different places will try and utilize that fear in order to sort of get them to act and intervene. My approach I think our approach, is a little bit different. We really want to stay very focused on education, enablement, empowerment, all of the E's to really make sure that parents are aware and that they know exactly what they need to do in order to really make sure that parents are aware and that they know exactly what they need to do in order to really equip themselves and then ultimately equip their children as well.

Fonz Mendoza: 10:50

Yes, you know that to me right now, with what you said to me, really sets you apart from a lot of other different platforms that I have grown to know through my job and going through conferences and so on, and of course, there's many different tools that many districts use. But what you're saying is speaking my language in the sense that I have always been a huge proponent that we need to include the parents as much as possible. When we talk about learning communities, usually it's like well, you know, let's say, the service center or central office, then you've got teachers and students, but then the parents, you know they fall by the wayside. But I love how you are very parent focused as well in what you're describing and many of the talks that I have with parents usually on a monthly basis when we'll do our webinar Wednesdays a lot of the things that I cover with them are, you know, digital, cybersecurity, digital, you know, citizenship, things of that sort, and of course, these conversations come up and you described what happens with parents.

Fonz Mendoza: 11:53

Very often is that kind of analysis, paralysis, where it's there's too much information for them to really dissect through and then they just, like you said, they just get paralyzed and then they don't do anything, and then, of course, that has a trickle down effect If there is something going on with their child, they may not be able to act on it as quickly as possible.

Fonz Mendoza: 12:15

So I want to applaud you and, of course, the work that LineWise is doing, because I think that at least in this time, right now, these are some of the conversations that really need to be had and we need to include parents in these conversations as much as possible. So, going into what digital wellness is like and of course I am not an expert in this field because, like I mentioned, when I do talk to parents, it's obviously that digital citizenship, you know, protecting them from cyberbullying, you know maybe a lot of dangerous trends that are out there and so on but can you just kind of open up and go in a little deeper as far as what digital wellness is? A good definition for our audience members so they can understand?

Teodora Pavkovic: 13:01

Sure. So I sort of developed a well, what I think is a relatively simple way of thinking about it and hopefully our listeners and viewers will think of it that way as well that orient us towards both ourselves and other sort of users of the internet, of internet, these various internet spaces, virtual digital spaces that we frequent in order to think about what it means to be digitally well. So the way I think about that is that being digitally well means that we're using technology in a mindful, intentional, humane kind of way so that it doesn't cause sort of a detrimental effect to our own well-being or to the well-being of other people. So that's a very kind of high level sort of idea. We can then dig deeper down and look at okay, what does that mean for us? How can we interact with these technologies in that mindful and intentional way so that it doesn't sort of cause issues for our own mood and our own well-being, our perception of ourselves and the world?

Teodora Pavkovic: 14:05

I think that's one of the ways in which the digital world impacts us the most.

Teodora Pavkovic: 14:10

It changes how we see ourselves and how we see other people, and then inevitably kind of changes how we show up in the world as a result of that.

Teodora Pavkovic: 14:19

So there is that relationship that we sort of have with ourselves via these digital spaces, digital platforms, the content that we create, that we sort of have with ourselves via these digital spaces, digital platforms, the content that we create, that we consume.

Teodora Pavkovic: 14:28

But then also, how can we think about that in an outward way, when we think about how do our actions in these spaces and on these devices and on these platforms, how do they impact other people as well?

Teodora Pavkovic: 14:40

And if we look at some of the trends over maybe the past 10 or 15 years, as we've sort of shifted from social media and maybe some of those more socially quote unquote oriented platforms to these more AI powered platforms, I think there's been an interesting kind of shift and change there. When it comes to social media, I think we do need to think a little bit more about how we show up for other people and how what we do in those spaces influences others. One of the problems that we see now, especially with young people using AI, is that you kind of create this vacuum in which all that exists is you and this sort of synthetic life form, if that's what we want to call it, and that's when I think we're really called to consider how our use of these platform uses, how they sort of influence us so that's kind of how I think about digital, really called to consider how our use of these platform uses, how they sort of influence us.

Teodora Pavkovic: 15:27

So that's kind of how I think about digital well-being. And then, of course, within that fits, you know, as you mentioned, digital citizenship what it means to be a responsible, a healthy, a compassionate digital citizen, and I know a lot of individuals and organizations and schools are really doing a great job of prioritizing that. We certainly think of that as being really important as well at Lion Wise, I certainly do as an individual as well, and that's where we can think about things like online bullying, for example. Right, that's one of the biggest ones. So when it comes to bullying and when I'm talking to parents about that, I'll talk to them a lot about that issue of how we show up for other people and the conversations that they can have with their kids about that and the conversations they can have, for example, around the tone that we use when we communicate with others. We know that the tone that we use online is not quite the same as the tone that we use offline, and we know that some of the words that we use and the ways in which we express ourselves online are quite different than what they are offline. And that's because offline you have that immediacy of the other human being there and the things that you're saying potentially hurting them or harming them or upsetting them, making them sad, making them happy, right, we have that immediate sense of reaction. We don't have that in these virtual spaces and it's very easy for us to sort of hide. So that's just one sort of little touch point when you're diving a little bit deeper into that definition of digital wellness, of what it means to be digitally well, and then we can look at so many different elements. We can talk about screen time.

Teodora Pavkovic: 16:56

Screen time is another really big topic that I sort of coach and educate and train around a lot. How can we think about screen time? What is too much, what is just much, what is just enough, what is too little? Maybe because that could be a possibility as well how can we combine both the question around quality and around quantity? How do we manage our children's access depending on their biological age, their maturity level, their personality and characteristics, their temperament? How do we do that when they're five as compared to when they're 10 and when they're 16, 17 and 18? And how do we do that on social media versus how do we do that on texting platforms versus now, how do we do that with AI bots and all of these different AI powered platforms? So all of these different things play a big role in there. A couple of the other more sort of higher level things that I also always keep an eye out on are things like legislation, governance. So what is happening in that area, whether it's in the US, whether it's internationally as well? So, going all the way from those highest levels around, how are these different bases regulated? All the way to how are the tech companies themselves thinking about this? What types of elements of design are they implementing? What are the types of behaviors that they're trying to get out of us? How are they trying to get us to engage with these platforms?

Teodora Pavkovic: 18:16

These platforms aren't entirely neutral. Yes, we often talk about them as tools, and it varies a lot depending on how you want to use it. So you have some sense of agency, certainly in terms of how you use it a lot depending on how you want to use it. So you have some sense of agency, certainly in terms of how you use it and also kind of how you curate your experiences on these platforms, but there are certain greater sort of powers there that are also influencing how we behave, how much time we spend on these platforms, what type of information and content do we see, and those things can have a really profound impact on us as well.

Teodora Pavkovic: 18:44

So, going from those higher levels all the way down to that individual parent or child or you or me who are utilizing these platforms and who are creating content or consuming content there, I think every one of these levels is incredibly important. When it comes to digital wellness, I think we all have a part to play there, especially again going back to the child who's really sitting at the center of all of it and who didn't really ask. Well, they asked to have that iPhone, but they didn't really ask, in a fundamental way, for their world to look the way it does. You know, we created this world for them and just kind of dumped this onto them. So I think we have that huge responsibility to then equip them also in the best way possible and try to keep them safe and well. You know as much as we can.

Fonz Mendoza: 19:28

Exactly, yes, exactly and yes to all of that. There's so many great things that you shared there that are just really set off, like myself, as far as you know some of the challenges that you spoke of. And, of course, you've got the screen time. Not only is there screen time at school, and we, of course there's always been several articles. Oh well, the screen time at school it's like productive screen time as opposed to just kind of like brain rot screen time at home and the difference and how to engage there and then trying to find balances and so on.

Fonz Mendoza: 19:56

So that's one thing that you know we have heard a lot about and I'm glad that you discussed that, because within your answer, I mean you discussed a lot of the challenges that parents face. And in talking to parents, you know number one, like we talked a little bit about earlier, there's like so much information out there that parents just kind of get paralyzed and don't know where to start, where to begin. So I love the fact that the work that you're doing through AlignWise helps educate the parents. Also, you know very important, like talking about the screen time and the way that you show up for people and talking about tone, which is very interesting because that kind of set a little thing off in me when, I guess, getting deeper into tech, I am from the era where I was in middle school and maybe I'm really aging myself here, guys but we had beepers, you know, or pagers, they would call them, and it was just like your parent would dial a code or just say, hey, call home, or something like that, and it was very limited. So started with that in junior high. But then, you know, when you move on to texting, I was always terrible at I would put tone into every message and I'd be like, well, are they mad at me? Why are they mad at me, when it was just a simple answer?

Fonz Mendoza: 21:08

And so a lot of times, you know, even when you're receiving a message or with the way that you interact with people, we have a tendency to do those things. And then, obviously, how is it that you mean that message? How are you trying to speak to that person which talks about the digital citizenship and you know, talking about digital or the bullying, cyber bullying as well how are we showing up and answering our friends or answering our colleagues, answering our peers and, of course, those dangers? So much to unpack there, which kind of leads me to my next question, because I know you hit on a lot of those things which are some of the challenges that parents are facing.

Fonz Mendoza: 21:44

But what I see and I don't know if you've experienced it, maybe you have but in my area, in my neck of the woods, you know, usually I can't go to a grocery store or you know supermarket or just a shop where there isn't a young little maybe two-year-old, three-year-old in a stroller, little maybe two-year-old, three-year-old in a stroller, and they've got the cell phone and or they've got the iPad and they are just scrolling away, watching everything, and it just seems like it's kind of like here, just kind of keep you busy so you don't cry while mom and pop do what we need to do and so on.

Fonz Mendoza: 22:20

And to me I'm like at such an early age it is scary to think how addicted they can become. Like you mentioned, what is the purpose of this application as garnering that interaction from even a two-year-old? What are they trying, the challenges there? So I want to ask you a little bit about that. How can a parent find that balance, as far as you know hey, let me limit the screen time or have a talk with them, but also putting their own guardrails in place. What would be some of the suggestions that you have? You know, along with that with you know, kind of within that question.

Teodora Pavkovic: 23:06

Yeah, sure, there's so many different angles to that and so many different different layers. I think we could talk for hours about this. As I mentioned before, you know, one of the things that kind of triggered me and kind of to think about all of this and led me down this path was those observations like the one that you just mentioned, where there is that very young child kind of attached I use some of that kind of the sort of psycholingo there but attached essentially to a device, and at a very young age we don't quite think about it as sort of addiction, it's really more just a normalization. Again, the child is too young to really understand what's going on. They pick up habits very quickly, their brain develops incredibly quickly and kind of create those patterns super fast. And so, if you know, you do that one time whenever you walk into the grocery store, you give your child a device and then do it a second time. By the third time they're probably going to be expecting it right. And that comes from the huge area in psychology, you know, and there's behaviorism, a lot of research done and that shows how quickly we build habits and how difficult it is for us to break them. So that's one of the main reasons that I always share with parents when it comes to again being mindful and intentional about the time at which, and the reasons because of which, we give especially our very young children devices, especially when they're pre-verbal. We, nor they, don't have that ability to really talk through what is going on and why it's happening and the reasons for why it's starting or ending, and it just it causes a lot, of, a lot of friction, let alone then, as you know, as our children get older. The benefit, though, is that we can at least have those conversations with them and explain things and make sure that they understand rationally why we're making the decisions that we are.

Teodora Pavkovic: 24:46

When they're very young, they become very used to kind of living in that virtual space, as opposed to the real world of the grocery store with the fruits and the vegetables and the other people who are there and the different types of lighting, and is it light outside? Is it dark outside? The child isn't quite aware of their surroundings at that point, and they're very much immersed, sort of, in that virtual world, and one of the things that worries me about that is that it's setting up young people quite nicely for the AI bots and the VR and all of these different things that are already here. They're only going to become more present as they get older. Not being inside a car, not being inside a restaurant, but always being in a virtual space instead, makes it very easy for them to pick up those VR goggles or whatever the wearable is going to be down the line and just enter that virtual space. It's a space that they're very comfortable with, and we see that reflected now in how children communicate, how they express the very deep thoughts and feelings. They're much more comfortable doing that in a digital setting as compared to, you know, those of us who had the pagers and the beepers and the old Nokia's in the late 90s playing snake on them, like I did where we have a reference point for what it was like to interact and to communicate in person. So that's one of the sort of key elements of creating that balance is trying to think about how much, and time is not the best way to look at it, but certainly the younger a child is, I think the more effective way it is to think about it.

Teodora Pavkovic: 26:19

How much time is my child spending in virtual spaces? And yes, watching Peppa Pig counts as a virtual space. Right, as soon as they're on that device. They can't be in two places at the same time. They're in a virtual space, and how much time are they sort of spending offline with you, with their caregiver, with their siblings if they have any, with other kids, with other adults, with strangers out on the street? Right, they take the village, and I think that's an important saying. That's always going to be true. We want to make sure that we expose children to those real life situations, because even as this world becomes increasingly tech saturated I think because of AI, in a very kind of weird, maybe unexpected, way, we are going to need to learn how to be more human if we're going to want to control these platforms and these tools and really make sure that we're on top. I think it's becoming more important than ever, really, if we're sort of going to kind of take control of the situation. So that's one of the most basic ways of thinking about it.

Teodora Pavkovic: 27:18

Another approach that we have and this comes from my work at LineWise this is our kind of foundational approach to online safety management. We call it the ABC of online safety management. I mentioned a couple of these elements already, but the A there stands for access. How do we manage our children's access to technology? Again, this is going to look different when they're two as compared to when they're seven and when they're 15 and so on. But how do we do that in an age-appropriate way? And I would say age-appropriate is one of the key phrases that I use. That, I think, is one of the most important ones when we're trying to decide what types of interactions our children should have with technology and with other users on the internet. So how are we managing that access?

Teodora Pavkovic: 27:59

And the second one, the B, is the boundaries. So they're in these virtual spaces, they're interacting with them in age-appropriate ways, but now we want to create boundaries so we don't just want to say spend any old time that you want, do anything that you want, visit any platform you want, consume any kind of content you want or share any kind of content. We want to create some of those healthy boundaries and using family agreement or a tech agreement I know a lot of people recommend that it's a really nice way of doing that and it can be a very simple approach and you can make it as complicated as you like and it's important to just stay very agile there. So we don't want to have the same kind of tech agreement when our child is two as when they're eight. Right, it needs to grow, it needs to change as our child is changing and kind of as they're proving to us that they're more capable of being independent and having more agency while they're online, and so we really want to support them through that.

Teodora Pavkovic: 28:49

And then the final piece, the C, is really something that we can start doing with kids. You know, as early as possible, even kind of before they become verbal, is to have conversations with them, to really talk to them about all of these things and not only ask questions around how was soccer practice? Or how was the sleepover? How was that math test? But you know, did anything dramatic happen on Snapchat today? And what was the funniest meme you saw? And what was the silliest TikTok that you saw today? And you know, there are lots of different ways that we can incorporate these elements of their digital life into the conversations that we have and also, by the way, talk about our own struggles.

Teodora Pavkovic: 29:28

That's, I think, one of the key things that I and a lot of other people in this space recommend. We are all struggling with this, for every parent who says my child's on their device too much. There's a child who says the same thing about the parent, right, and as adults, we're not fully aware of that, which is completely understandable, right? We're not, as human beings, as self-aware as we'd like to be, so really think of this as partnering up with your child, as something that is a shared struggle.

Teodora Pavkovic: 29:57

We're all trying to find what it means to be tech balanced, and how much Instagram is too much, and what are all the things I do and don't want to use chat, gbd for, and just so many other things. We're all trying to negotiate this. So I think that's a really strong, powerful point of compassion where we can come together with our kids, make sure that they understand that we're also struggling, but use things like the family contract or built together screen time routine so that we can really help each other and kind of hold each other accountable. A really fun thing to do if you have a teenager, if you're bold enough, is to ask them to set a boundary or two on your own use of tech, and you might find surprising things coming out from that. I think it will help parents to become more aware of their own technology use as well and keep that in mind as they try to negotiate this whole question around screen time and what's too much tech and what's too little. And you know how do we do this in a healthy way?

Fonz Mendoza: 31:44

I love that. I mean, that is so practical and just so easy to follow and I think, like for all our listeners and this is something that's going to be great like for me to share also, even with the parents in my district, too as well, it's when we do have these conversations, to be able to share that clip, because that's really going to help them out, because I think one of the biggest things again going back to the conversations that we have it's always the conversation piece how do I bring this up? I don't feel comfortable with this, and so on. So I really love that you gave you know, just some practical advice as far as building that partnership, and I think that's something that is very important so that the child understands that it's not just something that is imposed on them, but that it's a struggle that is, like you said, a common struggle, and we're both going to be doing this and going back to the parent side is, yes, you lose yourself in those things and maybe you try and justify and say, well, this is different, this is work related. This is something that I have to use and do all the time, as opposed to, maybe, what they're doing, which is just, you know, being online and just being, you know, on social media, but at the same time, you know, even for the parent, there is a need for that digital wellness component too as well.

Fonz Mendoza: 32:51

And then, like you mentioned, having that family time and being able to have those conversations. So I want to ask you you know, kind of talking a little bit more about that. As far as the conversation piece, I know when I share with parents, I'll have some wonderful resources, either in English or Spanish or whatever language they needed translated, and I'll pick, like just some small little articles that they feel comfortable with, just a couple of tips. But in your experience that you've had, you know, many years and what you've done through LineWise, what are some ways that parents can also bring this topic up to be able to speak with their child and talk to them about that digital wellness piece? Because let's just assume, you know, not many parents talk to the students at a, you know, very young age. So let's say, now they've got a middle school student and now they're seeing that there's a change in attitude or a change in behavior, what is a great way for a parent to start that conversation?

Teodora Pavkovic: 33:48

Yeah, one of the sort of easiest things that I recommend to parents who attend our educational webinars is use this webinar, the fact that you attended an educational session like this, or if you read an article or you see a video or you know whatever it is, you read a book use that as a starting point, especially if you've never ever kind of brought this up to your child or inside the home. Your child might think like, why are you suddenly interested in this? Why do you care? And they might also kind of not be crazy about that idea because they'll figure. Well, I could get away with things so far because mom or dad or whoever you know didn't know what was going on. Now they're kind of getting a sense of you know what's going on here, but use something like that as kind of an awareness piece, also to share the fact that you weren't really aware of all of the intricacies of what's going on. I spoke to a parent a couple of days ago who said they didn't know what Gemini was until relatively recently, because they don't have any need for it they don't spend a lot of time on social media and they just didn't know. And then suddenly this thing came up, or an article or an alert or something like that. That was talking about Gemini and they were like it blew my mind because I had no idea that it even existed, let alone that my kids might potentially be using it. You know, have the ability to do all of these incredible things with that tool. So the parents often don't know. Kids know that we don't know also, so we don't need to lie or pretend. I mean, it's okay to say that we don't and I think it's okay to say that we are trying to improve our knowledge and our awareness and that we, you know, attend workshops or seminars, that we read books or articles. We hear things about different. You know trends or risks or benefits to fun things as well. So you can ask your kids, you know, what's the latest trend on TikTok or what you know, what's a recent like funny phrase or an expression or a term that you know that I definitely won't know what it means, but it's very much kind of in right now. You know, educate me, teach me some of your lingo.

Teodora Pavkovic: 35:46

Or if you have a gamer at home, you know, one of the biggest recommendations there is to co-play with them, ask them about the games that they're interested in and then ask them if they can teach you some stuff and ask them about their journey. You know, of playing that game. They would have to have overcome a lot of obstacles probably to get to where they are. There would have been a lot of skills they had to pick up on. Ask them about that, you know. Ask them to invite you into that space as much as they're comfortable and teach you a little bit about what goes on there. So any opportunity that you have like that to really kind of come alongside them, as opposed to that typical, you know, put your phone down or turn it off or uninstall the app, or you know some of those more kind of combative ways right, which we sort of try to connect with our kids over this. I think any of those things can be really useful.

Teodora Pavkovic: 36:33

If you've seen a movie or a TV show, or maybe your child's working on a particular project in school, there's going to be a tech element in it. Again, going back to how we would have used tech when we were younger, one of the things I find really interesting about movies and TV shows nowadays is that technology is very much present and it's visible, and I think back to shows like, say, friends, there were no phones around, there were no smartphones, there was an occasional you know beeper again or something like that, but tech was nowhere to be seen, whereas now it's kind of everywhere right, and we can make these observations everywhere about the way that it impacts us. Whether you're going to talk about Uber as an app or DoorDash or Amazon ordering or whatever, it's absolutely everywhere, and I think parents can kind of shift their perspective a little bit and maybe not, hopefully, be as sort of scared or nervous or apprehensive about bringing these topics up. There are, I think, a lot of different opportunities to do that and there are lots of ways, I think, of doing it in a playful kind of way, in a gentle kind of way, where it isn't about that kind of, you know, kind of butting heads and trying to enforce some kind of rules or being kind of overwhelmed or scared or alarmed about what's going on online, but again, really trying to come up alongside our kids and just trying to initially show a little bit of curiosity and having that sort of beginner's mindset, if you will both concepts that actually come from Buddhism and other ancient traditions you know how beneficial it can be to approach a topic that you maybe already have some preconceived notions about, kind of from a blank slate, and I think that's a good tip for parents.

Teodora Pavkovic: 38:14

They'll have a lot of preconceived notions that are probably negative when it comes to their children's tech use. They'll probably be really afraid because they likely would have heard the worst version of all of these things in the media and social media and so on, so they'll be afraid this. But my child's a digital native. I can ask them questions about Fortnite or TikTok or chat, gpt or how they're using tech at school or whatever the case is, and learn a little bit. And kids, especially as they get older, they love it when we don't know things and when they can teach us things and when they can explain things to us and when we come at it from that perspective of you're younger but you know more about this than I do. So I think that's kind of one perspective shift that I think parents can find really helpful.

Fonz Mendoza: 39:02

Oh, I love that. I love that you really nailed it. There's so much gold and nuggets there that I'm definitely going to pull for those soundbites. But thank you so much because that was definitely very helpful and very thorough and I think for a lot of parents that just it's a great start and a great beginning and I love the fact that I mean you share these experiences, that this is what parents get to see when they attend a LineWise webinar and these are the things that they get to learn and to be able to just have those conversations and regardless.

Fonz Mendoza: 39:30

Many times I think that parents may feel, like I mentioned earlier, it's like man, I didn't start off that young.

Fonz Mendoza: 39:36

Now they're in middle school or maybe they're in high school, but it's never too late.

Fonz Mendoza: 39:40

Like I always tell my parents that I work with, I was like, even today, if we can get the students to think like for a split second before they click send or before they click post or before they send that message that you know can make a big difference between either keeping the doors open or closing a lot of doors based on the type of text or the type of content that was posted, because, as we all know, a lot of that stuff can come back and haunt you later on, and we definitely don't want our students or our children to close doors on themselves.

Fonz Mendoza: 41:12

So, parents, regardless of the age, it's never too late, and you just heard some wonderful sound advice from Teodora that she shared with you, so please make sure that you listen to that and you check out some of those webinars. So, teodora, I'm just going to shift just the conversation a little bit over, because I want to get into the research aspect of this. I know that you've been doing this for well over 10 years and research is definitely part of what you do, so I want to ask you if you can discuss some of the most significant findings of your research or practice regarding children's digital experiences.

Teodora Pavkovic: 41:51

Yeah, sure. So again, I mentioned earlier, there's been some of these big shifts between just the ways in which we spend time online and the ways in which young people spend time online, and we had Facebook kind of be one of the leaders in terms of these online spaces and then, about five or six or seven years ago, it really wasn't cool anymore for young people to be on Facebook and then they shifted into other virtual spaces. And then now, over the past sort of you know couple of years or however long it's been since ChatGPT has emerged, we're again we're seeing that shift in terms of, you know, what children are doing and where they're spending their time. So certainly, social media is still a sort of an ever, you know, present entity in their lives. That's still where they communicate with their friends, where they gather a lot of information about different things, where they sometimes seek out help when they need it, where they find communities that are perhaps hard for them to find in person, depending on where they're living and what kind of resources exist in their environment. It's the space that they enjoy when it comes to just having fun and just for, you know, sort of basic entertainment purposes, nothing more complicated than that.

Teodora Pavkovic: 43:02

So we, you know, we still see the big players continuing to be the big players like YouTube, tiktok, snapchat, instagram, those are, you know, those are definitely the sort of the main most popular ones and the shift that we've started seeing over the past I would say maybe a year, sort of a year and a half ago, it is quite recent, but it is this increase in use of AI-powered platforms and AI tools, not only the ones like ChatGPT or Copilot or Gemini, right, depending on sort of what your school is using, what your school district is asking your students to use, but using some of these more sort of companion-based or character-based AI chatbots as well. So ones like Replica, those might be ones that people are familiar with, characterai as well, that is, you know, receives negative attention, unfortunately, you know, in the news. But platforms like that that are really designed to be highly personalized, highly customized, to be very emotive, very engaging and to really go along, if you will, with sort of whatever it is that we desire in that moment. And so we're seeing these few key trends in terms of why kids are using these platforms, and one reason is definitely to seek advice, and we've seen that from our own sort of internal data, our own conversations with our districts. But if you look at some of the great research Common Sense Media has done as well, you'll be able to see some of those more detailed illustrations of how and why kids are using these and the different types of advice that they're seeking out, and it's everything from, you know, some serious mental health-related advice to relationship advice. I had this fight with my partner. Was I right or were they right? What should I have said next?

Teodora Pavkovic: 44:42

And we see young adults doing this as well. Companionship is another very big one and again, it's something like 20% 25% of young people at this point using AI companion bots for this reason, many of them using it out of pure boredom. So the Common Sense Media report indicated that about 45% of teens say that's the reason why they go to these bots, but many of them are exploring their emotions, their behaviors, the things that they would otherwise be doing sort of with other human beings, with their human friends. They're doing that now in these virtual spaces and they're discussing all kinds of topics Again, one of the things that we're seeing internally, but we're also seeing this emerge through some of the legislation. Places like Connecticut is one of the most recent states that is looking into making sure that children are kept safe in the context of chatbots that will engage in very sexually explicit conversations with them. It's something that we're seeing with our partner districts as well. So some pretty serious, very adult-like interactions happening in these virtual spaces and children really using these spaces that they think of as quite safe, very nonjudgmental, very easy to access in most cases free to access as well. They see them as spaces that are really just sort of easy to be in, to exist in and to engage with over these questions around their relationships, around their mental health and well-being, around emotional states like boredom, around states like creativity, though, as well.

Teodora Pavkovic: 46:09

So we are seeing the positives there as well, right, obviously, the opportunities to use these platforms for learning, for academic success. We've heard all the wonderful things, right, and all the amazing ways in which these platforms can help us, but there are some of these other trends and patterns that are starting to emerge that are not so much focused on some of those issues around using these platforms for academic purposes. That is one of the key trends as well, but we're seeing some of these others that, frankly, I am more, I would say, both interested in and worried about that touch upon well-being, that touch upon mental health. They touch upon emotional intelligence, social health, social intelligence as well, and this is where we see some of these online safety risks now start to emerge. So we're not only having to think about the ones in the context of social media we kind of know what those are already but we're now seeing them emerge through these AI-powered platforms as well.

Teodora Pavkovic: 47:10

The amplification of mis and disinformation. We're seeing deepfakes, we're seeing these sort of new ways in which these tools can be used in ways that we haven't really seen before, and so we're really having to think on our feet and be very quick in terms of understanding children's behavior on these platforms and in these virtual spaces and then really come up with ways as quickly as we can to help both the school district but help the families as well. And again, it really empowered the whole community, first and foremost to make sure that they understand how young people are using these platforms, then to understand why they're using them in those ways. So why are they so drawn to them? Why do they find them just so appropriate and satisfying, given the needs that they have? And then that question of okay, and then what do we do about that? So how do we now think about, for example, those ABCs in the context of AI?

Teodora Pavkovic: 48:00

And how do we now think about tech balance in the context of AI, where, when it's very likely that many of us are going to have at least one AI companion of some description in the next I would say six to 12 months, really, even if it's just sort of a personal assistant type, right, most of us are going to start again bonding, attaching, if you will, to these character bots, for a number of different reasons.

Teodora Pavkovic: 48:26

We're seeing our young people already start to do that in some pretty significant ways, and so, again, this is where my passion for this work really comes out. It's one of the things that, again, interests and worries me the most. I don't want us to miss the boat on this one, because I think we did a little bit. When it comes to social media, and we're trying to kind of scramble and catch up and try, we're kind of at the forefront of it. I still think we have that opportunity to very quickly, though, become aware of what the issues are and then really think about how can we create safe spaces within the classroom, within the home, everywhere in between to make sure that children interact with these again synthetic entities. There are lots of different ways we can call them in really safe and healthy and responsible ways.

Fonz Mendoza: 49:16

Wow, thank you so much. I really appreciate that. That was just, you know, a lot of great things happening because, like you said, you know we're hearing a lot about character AI. You know, we knew what happened to Suels, you know. And we saw Megan Garcia. I saw that little brief YouTube video where she described what was happening.

Fonz Mendoza: 49:33

And that's just the importance of you know, being able to see what it is that your child is doing, how they are engaging with social media and, like I said, it's never too late to get that conversation going. And, of course, coming back to and I love what you keep referring back to the ABCs, because that's so practical, but I mean, it's never too late to start having those conversations. But you're right, you know, it just seems like there is a scramble because of what we didn't see was going to happen. You know, with just social media Now it's going to be, or grow that much more exponentially now with AI and the AI companions and the bots and learning to distinguish. You know that this is a parasocial relationship. It's not a truly social relationship where you're one-on-one speaking to somebody, and that, too, can be very dangerous. So, thank you so much for that wonderful share.

Fonz Mendoza: 50:25

So, teodora, before we start wrapping up, you know I always love to end the show with the last three questions. Well, teodora, thank you so much for the wealth of knowledge and information that you shared with us. You know talking about, you know practical steps. You know, as far as having those conversations with your child about social media, additional support or, if I need some additional help, linewise they offer some webinars for parents and then, of course, you can make those connections there on the LineWise website which we will link in the show notes too as well where you can go ahead and visit and see their resources and see what would be available to you to get that additional support and help, and not only for parents but for school districts as well.

Fonz Mendoza: 51:13

You know, as you know, we are going through some very interesting times, and digital wellness should definitely not fall by the wayside at all whatsoever, so that's something we definitely need to take care of. So, teodora, thank you so much for again some wonderful shares, but before we wrap up, I always love to end the show with the last three questions, so hopefully you are ready. So here we go. Question number one as we know, every superhero has a pain point or a weakness. So for Superman, that kryptonite was his weakness. So I want to ask you, in the current state of, I guess, digital wellness, I want to ask you what would you say is your current digital wellness? Kryptonite.

Teodora Pavkovic: 51:56

That's a tough question.

Teodora Pavkovic: 51:57

I was trying to think about it in preparation for our conversation and I was thinking there is one particular sort of thing that I see, or that I notice out there in the world that I feel like the impact it has is.

Teodora Pavkovic: 52:12

I feel like it weakens my spirit. It makes me feel like I'm kind of I'm failing, I'm not doing enough if I'm not creating this particular change in behavior. And that will be these moments when we hear about children who have had really horrible experiences as a result of using whether it's character chatbots, whether it's a particular social media platform, statistics around how much time, say, two or three or four-year-olds are spending on platforms like TikTok that are entirely inappropriate for them. It's learning about those sort of pieces of research or those insights that come through in terms of how children are interacting with digital spaces and unhealthy ways. Some of them do, like I said, sort of weaken my spirit and make me feel like this is kind of everything is lost, there's no hope left. Luckily, I recover very quickly after that, but those are, I think, probably my kryptonite. Those are the things that kind of just temporarily sort of bring me down a little bit and kind of cause me to lose some hope.

Fonz Mendoza: 53:24

Yeah, no, and that makes perfect sense. But I'm thankful that you are doing what you're doing and what you are doing and sharing this wonderful information not only in platforms or, you know, conferences such as South by Southwest, but through webinars, through this podcast, that everything that you are sharing is a valuable resource that can help make a difference in the life of a family. So that is something that is very commendable and I know that it's hard because we definitely want to do good for everybody, but, trust me, you're doing a wonderful job and I just want to let you know that I am thankful because being able to speak with you just gives me more confidence to be able to share these amazing things that you're sharing with our parents too, and pass that along. So, in a way, you're having a profound effect and it's an extended effect through the work that you're doing. So thank you so much for that. I want to ask question number two now is if you could have a billboard with anything on it, what would it be and why?

Teodora Pavkovic: 54:26

I think I would probably I'm a huge kind of art fan If I hadn't studied psychology. I would have studied art history, so I love. You know, museums are my happy place, so I think if I could put anything on a billboard there are a couple of different things that sort of I was thinking about. One would be pulling up a really beautiful painting or a photograph and just putting the words you are human on it, because I think we're moving further and further away from what it means to be human and what it means to kind of act, show up in this world as a human. We're starting to use, I would say, a few too many tools in order to be creative and be productive. We're not using our own sort of hands and eyes and brains enough. That would mainly be one. The other option would be a quote and I'm just going to paraphrase it here by the philosopher Seneca.

Teodora Pavkovic: 55:16

That was really kind of it was perspective shifting for me around time and the concept of time. I think, again, technology really disrupts our concept of time, how we look at how much time we have, and Seneca said that it's not so much that we don't have enough time in life, it's that we're wasting a lot of it. So it's a question of how we're using it, and for me that was a really interesting perspective shift, sort of as somewhat sort of negative and fatalistic as that sounds. I think there's some hope in that that it's really not about how much time there is as kind of absolute value. It's really all about our perceptions, and perceptions are something that we can absolutely change and have an impact on.

Fonz Mendoza: 55:56

Love it. Those are two wonderful billboards that I can definitely see, one right after another. Wonderful, all right. And my last question, teodora, for you is if you could switch places with a single person for a day, it could be anybody who would it be, and why?

Teodora Pavkovic: 56:15

I was trying to think about this one as well, and nothing was coming up for me. In the present moment I was thinking back to, I would love to have been, you know, leonardo da Vinci for a day, or Queen Elizabeth I or I don't know Sir Isaac Newton or JRR Tolkien. I would want to be inside their brains and think the way they were thinking and make decisions the way they were making their decisions and make discoveries the way they made them, because I feel like that must have been. They may not have been aware of it at the time, but for us, obviously, observing them from this amount of distance, it's really an incredible thing what they were able to accomplish. But when I was thinking in terms of a more kind of modern take on that, I'm drawn to.

Teodora Pavkovic: 56:58

Again, going back to art, I'm drawn to, I think, artists and performers who are able to tap into different emotional planes or heightened emotional states, or who really know how to tap into emotions and how to express them. So I mean, for people who know me really well, they won't be surprised that it would be someone like Cher, who is one of my absolute icons, or other performers like, now, the late Tina Turner, dolly Parton's, another favorite of mine. These are women who, yeah, I think of as being incredibly creative, as being incredibly inspired, as having this. Going back to tools, they have this tool, or maybe more of a talent, to tap into something that's incredibly human and elevate it and enable all of us to tap into the same thing as well. So, talking about, you know, superheroes and superpowers, I think there are very few powers outside of maybe the work that educators do, that doctors do, that are that beneficial to the human race. So I think it would be somebody like that.

Fonz Mendoza: 57:59

Excellent, great answer. Well, tadara, it has been an honor and a pleasure to speak with you today. Thank you so much for sharing so much information and wonderful information, wonderful resources. This is definitely going to be a wonderful podcast that I'm definitely going to enjoy. You know, cleaning up and editing and pushing out, because it's definitely something of value for our parents today and immediately. So I really appreciate that. And before we wrap up, teodora, can you please share with our audience members how they may be able to connect with you? You know whether on social media, through AlignWise, let us know, we'd love to connect.

Teodora Pavkovic: 58:37

Sure, yeah, so definitely AlignWisecom. I would direct people to go there to learn a little bit more again about the different ways in which we support the communities that we work with. For those of you who listen to this whole conversation, you probably won't be surprised to know that I'm not very present on social media. I'm not particularly interested in social media for myself. I'm interested in how other people use it. But you will be able to find me on LinkedIn. If you just do a search for my first and last name, you'll be able to find me there.

Teodora Pavkovic: 59:07

I am somewhat reluctantly active there, but I do always encourage people to connect there. I want to know more about what other people think about the topics we talked about. I want to know more about what other people think about the topics we talked about. I want to know what they're doing about them, if they need any additional help, any additional resources. That's really all I'm about, both in my role at LineWise generally, what I do, what I've been doing for the past again couple of decades being in these various spaces. I want to try and help people as much as possible and really that's the only reason why I'll use social media.

Fonz Mendoza: 59:39

Excellent. Well, teodora, thank you so much. And all those links. They'll definitely be in the show notes. So, for all our listeners, thank you, as always, for your support and please make sure that you head over to our website at myedtechlife that's myedtechlife where you can check out this amazing episode and the other 325 wonderful episodes where, I promise you, you will find some knowledge nuggets that you can sprinkle onto what you are already doing. Great and, as always, thank you. Thank you from the bottom of my heart for all of your support and until next time, my friends, don't forget, stay techie, thank you.