Episode 327: Holly Owens

Fonz Mendoza: 0:30

Hello everybody and welcome to another great episode of my EdTech Life. Thank you so much for joining us on this wonderful day and, as always, wherever it is that you're joining us from around the world. Thank you for your support. We appreciate all the likes, the shares, the follows. Thank you so much for all the lovely messages and the comments and for sharing our content and finding value in our content. Thank you, as always, from the bottom of my heart. As you know, we do what we do for you to bring you amazing conversations, and today is no different than any other episode.

Fonz Mendoza: 1:01

Today I have a wonderful guest that I have been following on LinkedIn for quite a while, probably well, more more than a year now. She puts out amazing content. She really puts herself out there, but she also gives great strategies and great learning about L and D and ID and I know we're talking acronyms right now, but we'll definitely break that down right now in just a second. But I would love to welcome to the show today Holly Owens. Holly, how are you doing today? I'm doing great. Fonz, how are you? I'm doing wonderful.

Fonz Mendoza: 1:39

And like I mentioned, just a longtime follower, a big fan of your work and also yeah, also I do want to share. Thank you so much for your support because I know you're always you know engaging with the post you're always sharing, and also thank you so much for all the support through Yellowdig, as well as being one of our show sponsors. So I really appreciate you seeing value in what we do and just bringing these conversations into our education space to continue to grow. So, thank you so much. But, holly, before we get started and dive in into the world of L&D and ID and, of course, ai so talk about an alphabet soup there Can you give us a little brief introduction and what your context is within the education space?

Holly Owens: 2:22

Absolutely so. My context within the education space currently is higher education, so working at Yellowdig as a growth marketer, our main ICP or target client is higher education students and faculty. So I started out my career as a K-12 teacher, as many guests of your show have, and many people that listen to my show are also. So then from there, I switched over into e-learning developer with the government for about six months and then I went to higher education as an instructional designer, instructional technologist, doing all the ed tech trainings, helping people design courses, spent the better part of my career in higher education, you know, started teaching in higher education as well. I've been adjuncting since 2012.

Holly Owens: 3:07

I currently work at twirrell university, uh, which is a university based in new york, manhattan, uh, remote of course, because I'm in wilmington, north carolina, um. And then after higher education, I got into uh instructional design. I was an online program management company, which has a corporate field but works with institutions to stand up online courses and programs, accelerated courses and programs. Then, after that it was really a big surprise and a lot of fun I got a role at Amazon. So I worked for Amazon Pharmacy for about two years as a corporate ID and, as most of you know, amazon decided to RTO, which equals return to office, and I'm a remote person so that wasn't gonna happen.

Holly Owens: 3:51

So I did a little bit of like a brief freelance thing and then Sean F Rory, the CEO and founder of Yellowdig, brought me on as like a marketing person and then promoted me to the director of growth marketing based off of all my experience he's been on my show and we just, you know, just have her from there. I didn't apply for the role. So here I am no marketing degree sitting in a marketing role, have a vast amount of instructional design experience, ed tech, all the different things. You know my degrees are in those different areas, but I do a variety of different things. As you said out on LinkedIn, I do job postings and I've really built a large following there of helping people.

Fonz Mendoza: 4:33

I love it and with that background, I mean you've seen pretty much a little bit of everything and a lot more, and so I love that you bring that lens and so many different perspectives. As far as you know the learning and development and, of course, instructional design, because I mean working with so many different companies and a variety of learners, I mean you really really have to know your learners and as you go from area to area, I mean you really need to know who your audience is, how they learn and things that are easiest for them. And, to be honest with you, I really like that you mentioned that here I am with no marketing degree, and so it's very interesting because it's a little similar to myself and I know I've mentioned it in a lot of episodes it's like I came into education not with an education degree. I actually came into education with a marketing degree.

Holly Owens: 5:29

So we're the opposite.

Fonz Mendoza: 5:30

Yeah, so the opposite, but it falls in line with what you said. It's like here I am being in charge of marketing, but for me, marketing and what I learned through sales in my four years of experience and knowing customers, I truly, truly believe that that has helped me be very successful in the classroom. Not knowing, let's say, the education theory. Of course, as you go through the years you start learning that, you start building up your skill set within the education setting. But at the end of the day I always saw my classroom is customer first, my students. I have 30 different customers that I have to sell a subject to. In that case, when I first started, it was algebra. So I had 30 customers I had to sell algebra to and not everybody bought it the exact same way. So I had people here that wanted cup holders, people here that didn't want cup holders and things of that sort. But it's all a matter of leveraging their strengths and you're really it's interesting because in math we're trying to solve problems, but in reality I'm trying to solve their problem, to help them solve those problems. So it's very interesting.

Fonz Mendoza: 6:38

Like I said, that you mentioned knowing your customers. I think that's something that is very. It just goes back to the basics of it in anything that we do, and I think that that's fantastic. And, of course, your tech background. I mean geez chef's kiss to that, because I know that that helps you stay at the forefront of a lot of the things that you're currently doing, so I love that. That's multiple hats right there, for sure.

Holly Owens: 7:02

Yeah, yeah, you really got to know the ecosystem right. You got to be in it, you got to. If you are in the selling side of things, you have to understand what's happening internally and what the different moving parts that exist, the barriers, the challenges, in order for you to sell, quote, unquote the technology and get it integrated into the institution. So we are actually like examples of how things, how transferable skills between different industries are like. It does happen. I know some people are like, well, if I don't have a degree or if I don't have this insert sense skill here, I can't do this job. I think that's a blocker for many people and that's the imposter syndrome creeping in. But you and I are prime examples. Marketing degree, ed tech, a not marketing degree in ed tech.

Fonz Mendoza: 7:47

Yes.

Holly Owens: 7:48

Yeah, we're great examples.

Fonz Mendoza: 7:49

Exactly. And you know, 18 years later, I mean believe it or not, like I always tell people, it's like I never expected to go into education. As a matter of fact, it was never at the forefront for me, it's like. For me it was like, oh, business, finance, I'm going to go make millions of dollars and take care of my parents and do all of this. But I landed in education and I absolutely fell in love with it. There was just something about it.

Fonz Mendoza: 8:10

And 18 years later, here I am, and probably within the next month I'll be defending my dissertation, and I was like who would have thought? Who would have thought, you know, like you mentioned? And, and so I want to touch a little bit about what you said. I know we'll get into the meat of it, but I think that this is very important. That you mentioned is many times people think, well, I don't have that specific or particular skill, and that imposter syndrome sets in. But oftentimes maybe we don't see that we do have that skill, because maybe it plays out different whether you're in a classroom, or it plays out different whether you're in corporate or whether you're in sales.

Fonz Mendoza: 8:45

But there is that transferability. And so one thing that I always recommend and even for myself, that I learned some wise words, and I don't know where I picked them up from is don't disqualify yourself, let them disqualify you. So you go ahead and put that app in. You go ahead and you know, update that resume and put in that application and, you know, don't let the imposter syndrome kick in.

Fonz Mendoza: 9:08

So and which is something that we'll talk a little bit about now because one of the things that you do on LinkedIn and you do so well, like you mentioned is you really put yourself out there. It's the human first learning strategist. That's something that you put there, you know continually, and you always have this human connection with so many people as far as job postings and things of that sort. But I want to ask you, you know, as far as that is concerned, tell me a little bit about that. Like, what is it that you love about helping you know, of course, our learners and our educators and all our friends there on LinkedIn? What is it that really drives that for you?

Holly Owens: 9:48

I think it's just the part of giving back. Like once you're at a certain, you reach a certain stage of your life or a certain stage of your career, it's important to kind of mentor the people who are coming up and offering that opportunity. It's kind of like when you have a kid, you don't want them to make the same mistakes that you made in life, so you mentor them to do things differently than you did, and that's how I feel. Not that the linkedin community are my children, because that's too many children, but I feel like there is a, there's a um, there's a purpose there, uh, to share my experiences, share the tips. Don't keep things a secret. That's one of the things I love about the L&D community is we're all so open. I'm an L&D. Is learning and development if you haven't picked that up yet is we're all so open and willing to share our experiences. And everybody's is different, but you'll see some commonalities across there. So that's what really keeps me going is giving people the opportunity to step outside. Teachers. Really keeps me going is giving people the opportunity to step outside. You know, teachers come from a lot of trauma and step outside the classroom and do something different. That's still meaningful because teachers go into teaching because they are a particular person, they have particular goals, they're intrinsically motivated, they understand people, they're emotional, they they're intuitive, they feel different things and I think that you know stepping into an L&D role is a great one for educators. So, just to answer your question, it's definitely time to give back. I'm middle age now, been in the game like you for about 18 years and I'm just like you know what it's important for me to tell people like this is how things are going in the job market or this is how things are going in instructional design and what's impacting us as an ecosystem, and then offer them actionable tips, advice, resources, things that they can use to get started, where they don't feel like, oh my gosh, there's 10,000 different things to do. Well, here are three things you can do today. Like bang, bang, bang. Do those things today. You know, I did a webinar recently with iSpring on the id make or the makeover of your resume, and I can't tell you like I just shared exactly what I did and people were like they're like blown away by some of these tips and how easy it is.

Holly Owens: 11:55

Like you said, we have. We create this barrier inside of ourselves that when we're applying for roles or when we're transitioning positions, that we're not good enough, we're our own worst critic, in the sense that we are creating this manifestation in our minds that we're not going to be able to do this or they're not going to hire us because we don't have this experience. But in my mind, when that's happening, you are interviewing that company and organization just as much as they're interviewing you, because you want a place where you fit and you feel passionate and they support you and your endeavors just as much as you're supporting them. So leave imposter syndrome at home. I get it all the time, so I have to be my own like, take my own advice, but you know you're interviewing them just as much as they're interviewing you. So you want to be at a place where you fit.

Fonz Mendoza: 12:41

I love it, great tips and I know recently you've been doing a lot more of that on LinkedIn and putting yourself out there and really, like you said, one of the great things that I love that you do is not only you know, do you help by putting up job postings, but also just the fact that sharing your own experiences and you know, here are the things that work, or here are the things to look out for, and just practical advice that for many that, like you said, those two to three gems that they can sprinkle to what they're already doing great, can just really open up doors and open up, you know, opportunities for them and overcome that imposter syndrome, like you mentioned. But going back again to the human first learning strategist tagline, you know of course we see it on LinkedIn, on your podcasting community, but I want to ask you, what does that mean to Holly Owens, especially when right now we see AI getting pushed or keep pushing the learning?

Holly Owens: 14:20

Yeah, what I'll say is that it doesn't matter to me how many different AIs, or if we step into, like this iRobot scene of the Will Smith movie and AI is taking over things. I recently and this is a full side note I saw an article on People Magazine that somebody asked the AI bot. They proposed to them like engagement. I'm like this is getting a little bit out of hand here. So one of the things I believe is that AI, you know a lot of people feel like it's going to replace you, but the emotional aspect of the human mind, that's irreplaceable. So putting the human at the center of everything at the conversation to me means being able to still talk to each other not through AI, but you know, as real individuals, and share those human experiences is important because many times you'll see out at LinkedIn or even in some of the social media platforms as people are just sharing their lives. They're sharing with you what they want you to see. They want you to see the butterflies and the rainbows. But really that's not how the experience is, and I'll give you an example Although I worked at Amazon, I didn't get the job the first time. Give you an example Although I worked at Amazon. I didn't get the job the first time. I had to wait a whole year to get the instructional design job at Amazon Pharmacy when I first applied for it, and in Toronto County they got that, and that happens more often than not.

Holly Owens: 15:40

So the human piece to me is just supporting each other. I mean, ai can only do that to a certain extent. You know, with writing different cover letters or helping with your resume or sending different emails or communication out. There still needs to be that piece of you in the conversation, the piece of you in the story, and your story is so unique to anyone, like what you've experienced in life. It's not just about your professional life.

Holly Owens: 16:06

We also all, believe it or not, have personal lives. I remember when my students used to see me in the grocery store and they're like you, grocery shop. I'm like, well, yeah, how am I supposed to eat? You think I could just like I'm a normal person. I do different things outside of the office, outside of the podcast.

Holly Owens: 16:24

So I think bringing us back to the basics and to that is really connecting with each other on this level, whether that be in a virtual space, because some of my very best friends are I've met through linkedin, like some of the people that I trust the most, like luke hobson, heidi kirby um, you know, just interacting with those people, um, it's important to to do that still, um, one of the things that yellowdig, that we value, is authentic connections and conversations with people. You can sit down and I can guarantee, within probably 60 to 120 seconds of the conversation, you're going to find something you have in common with the person. You're going to be like your brain's going to go off and be like, oh yeah, I've had that similar experience. I don't think I can do that yet.

Fonz Mendoza: 17:13

Yet.

Fonz Mendoza: 17:14

Yeah so but that's the like you mentioned and right now I know there's a lot of hype. There's, we do see where there's some practical uses for it and it's like, okay, it's great, that's fantastic. There's also the other side where it's like hype, this is it Like, this is this is going to solve the world's problems. And then of course, you get both sides and you know, and I always say here on the podcast, it's like I really find myself kind of in the middle. I'm kind of like a wait and see, but I like to move, but just being able to really research and discern what is out there, because you know people are passionate on both sides, people that you know. Of course there's articles that will come out, you know. Is AI or LLMs destroying?

Holly Owens: 17:58

our neurons, so those that are in favor of and no, it's not. How do we know that? Yet it hasn't been out that long.

Fonz Mendoza: 18:01

It hasn't been out that long. How do we know that yet? How do we do this and how do we do that? And then, of course, there's people that are, you know, like yes, yes, it is, and this is what we're seeing, and so you see both sides. But you know, I always try and keep it balanced and I'm always like, ok, I'm cautiously reading and doing those things, and I think that's so important in our job roles and in our spaces where we do work with ed tech, so much. So I want to ask you, for example, I know recently one of the tools that I dug into was something that you had shared, which I think it was TruePeer AI. I hope I'm pronouncing it right, because I know it looks like it's Trooper, but I thought it was Trooper at first.

Holly Owens: 18:37

It's TruePeer. Yeah, yeah.

Fonz Mendoza: 18:39

TruePeer, you know where it shows that you can record, and then you do a screen share and then, of course, it'll create you know course material like in minutes, like in a flash. So I want to ask you what goes through your mind working in the L&D space learning and development and then, of course, in the instructional design space, as you go and find tools like this that you discover and, like you said, openly share. What are some of the things that you look for before this is something that you would roll out to your learners and how, if anything, does that conflict with, is there a conflict with that human first strategy many times? Tell us what your thought process is in all of that.

Holly Owens: 19:22

Yeah Well, first of all, it's important to evaluate the tool like that you're about to share and I'm not sharing anything that I haven't used myself, I'll say that. So anything like I'm a brand ambassador and I'm not sharing anything that I haven't used myself, I'll say that. So anything like I'm a brand ambassador for, I'm sharing that on LinkedIn world, I've used it and you know I put it into practice and I can say that some of those like Troop here, you know there's Synthesia, like with the AI tools. I've used all of them and I'm actually using Synthesia in my courses that I'm teaching online. I think it's important.

Holly Owens: 19:52

One of the first things I try to look for, or that I make sure is available, is the accessibility information about the tool, because if they are not putting accessibility at the forefront of everything, then what's the point Like people are going to there's? That's going to create barriers for people, whether they have a learning disability or not. So it's important that there's accessibility in the tool, that they're able to navigate it with keyboard navigation, that kind of stuff. So those are the tools. That's one of the first things I look for. Also, look to see, I'm pretty like I don't want to say selfish, but I want it to save me time and save me money. So, and then companies are looking for that too. So with Truepeer, that saves a ton of time when you've recorded something and it's spitting out like the how-tos and the video with the captions and all the different things. Just think about pre-AI how much time that took instructional designers to create that. That would probably take me a week or two to do those things manually and type everything out and make sure it sounds right.

Holly Owens: 20:55

So now, instead of just you know coming up with the description of the video or coming up with the script, ai is doing that for me. And I'm going through what I'm reading. I'll say, nope, take this out, this doesn't sound like this is a part of this, because you know ai is not perfect. Or put this in this sounds more like you know AI is not perfect. Or put this in this sounds more like you know it's giving you an insider perspective, or like a tip that you should use, like at this portion or with this feature of the tool. So you still have to go through and evaluate what is actually being said. You can't just say, okay, put it in there, it's all done, put it out. No, there still needs to be a process where you're like okay, does this sound good for the learner? Is this something that they're going to understand?

Holly Owens: 21:36

There's a lot of jargon that possibly ai is getting wrong or is putting into the conversation because you know, from accessibility, you're supposed the reading level is supposed to be around sixth to eighth grade. Um, so it's simplified enough so that learners can like understand it. Um, so I think that's. Those are some of the first things that I do, but if it's a tool that saves me time and saves the company money, why not try it? You know, test it out, see what's gonna happen.

Holly Owens: 22:03

And yeah, there oftentimes is a conflict between the human aspect of that and because we're all right now with AI, we're moving even faster to get things done, so sometimes that quality might get sacrificed. And that's the human piece of it, like the emotional tie, the psyche. Um, you know figuring out like, is this something an activity that people are really going to like enjoy doing, or am I just doing this to get it done? Is it a checklist item? And then you know if you have a long to-do list, like many us do, you're, you're checking it off the list, you're like I did this, but you you may or may not have properly and appropriately evaluated the tool, so I recommend doing like some pilots with people, or testing with the end user. Before you full blown, just put it out there. Insane, it's solving all your problems. Because, as far as I'm concerned, there's no technology at this point that's out there that solves all the problems.

Holly Owens: 22:58

Instructional designers and learning and experience designers and everybody in the L&D whoever are trying to solve. But this AI is giving us what we need in terms of having the creative mind space, because, as an instructional designer and a human first person, I want to talk to other people. I want to sit in a space where I can share my ideas and be creative. Doing all that manual work of setting stuff up that that ai is taking care of now allows me to do that, so it frees me up to have coffee chats or conversations with my coworkers instead of like, well, I got to think of another fun, fun FOMO webinar description. Or I got to think of a title that's going to work. I got to set up all the components of it. I know I can actually sit in my creative space and think about, like, how am I going to make this meaningful to people and really focus on the what's in it for me from the learner perspective.

Fonz Mendoza: 24:54

Yeah, and you know and I love that you mentioned that because I wanted to highlight it kind of goes in with the next question that I was saying you know you still need that human piece because, as you mentioned, with tools like Synthesia or Synthesia and you know being used, and heavily in the instructional design space, sometimes you feel like, okay, you know, this is great because it's saving me that time, but then at the same time is it turning into just kind of like a bland homogenization of you know, excuse me homogenization of learning, where it just seems like very cookie cutter and it's just very bland. So I think, like you mentioned, it just seems like very cookie cutter and it's just very bland. So I think, like you mentioned, you know, you have to find that right balance where you are using the tech appropriately, again, like you mentioned, to save you time, but then, of course, revising and going back and still adding that human component and that quality piece to make that connection. And I think that I wanted to bring in just a comment from a good friend of mine that I follow and she mentioned, she said and she posted, she said that she just got out of the keynote and she delivered a keynote and she said I already had this keynote months ahead, months behind or, you know, months prior to this.

Fonz Mendoza: 26:09

Yeah Well, I don't know if it was, she was prepared, it was well, I guess it was just having the keynote just ready to go, because you never know when you're going to get called. And so obviously she mentioned and she said, guys, she goes. I used, you know, obviously, ai to help me do this keynote. But she said, as I was delivering this keynote and I'm looking and I'm feeling the presentation and I'm going, it's like this isn't me. Like she came to this realization where, like this isn't my voice and she goes. You know what, she goes.

Fonz Mendoza: 26:40

I'm going to kind of dial it back just a little bit, just to kind of like and that is something that was on my mind many, many months ago where I was like, okay, where do we get to the point where, like you said, we're pulling it, we're putting out the quantity, but then we're losing ourselves within the quality of that and losing our own voice and just kind of reeling it back in? How have you dealt with that? Have you come to a point where you feel like, man, I'm doing all this great work, I'm doing what I need to for my jobs, for my learners. And then you think about like, oh my gosh, like, like. Is there enough of me in here? Is there enough voice, is there enough of my personality in here to make that human connection? What has gone through your mind during this time?

Holly Owens: 27:26

When AI spits out stuff that doesn't sound like me, I prompt it to say sound like me? Or I put more stuff into it that sounds like me, like recently, um working in the podcast and working in the tool that I use. Um, it does, it can do the AI voice. It does not sound like me, it is just. It is so far from what it sounding like with the intonation and the different things that we can do as humans. Um, so one of the things that I like to do is, you know, I go through whatever I'm prompting it to do and I'm like this, this yeah, I get that feeling it really doesn't sound like me. So I say tell to sound like me a little bit more and then I tweak it a little bit more to give it that more positive spin, because sometimes ai is just so generic and top level. It doesn't really have that emotional part of it, and I think that's the part we touch on most as humans is the emotional aspect. So I go back through it and I put some emotion into it, like really deep, like feeling connected to each other, instead of this like very generic top level, like, okay, here's, here's a resource you know, have fun using it.

Holly Owens: 28:32

I think storytelling AI also helps with that too. So AI knows I mean, chat GPT knows who I am, it knows my story. It knows from start to finish where I started my career and it's learned that. But it doesn't know everything. It doesn't know every little piece. You don't know about the struggles that I may have had as far as, like, mental health is concerned. You know when my my father passed away in 2011 and you know he took his own life. Like it doesn't know that story and how that impacted me as a human, because AI hasn't experienced that and it doesn't know what it's like. You know, I'm just bringing up like the grief part of it to go be grieving as you're trying to still be a professional and still trying to be a human. So I think it's important that we recognize that. But also, too, you're learning AI just as much as it's learning you.

Holly Owens: 29:22

So, as you're putting in the different prompts, like you're trying to figure out, like what you want it to spit out in the sense, like to spit out in the sense, like I think sometimes my words are just too simplistic not not simplistic in the way like I'm dumbing it down, but it's like I want to say it differently, like I want to say it more professionally, more clear, to the point, and I AI helps me with that. Um, so that's what I use it for, but other times I just want to. I need some, some ideas, I need some things. Like you know, make me a list of this or show me this, or you know, like it really does.

Holly Owens: 29:56

I learned through AI and like with some of the things that are happening with it, like you can do research mode and like as an academic, that's oops, I had my microphone. That's important. You need to have research to back up your what you're saying to faculty or what you're doing in the classroom. So having that availability is helping tremendously too. So, on one hand, it's really is giving you that more free time and it's more speedy, but again, that human piece has to constantly come back into it and you have to connect with others. Like I don't, I don't, I don't know how that person got to the point where they like fell in love with ai.

Holly Owens: 30:33

I mean, I know there's a movie about it, but it really it's like I don't know yeah it's probably a topic for another day, but I was just like when I saw the article, I was like this is insane to me, like this person is too connected to the artificial intelligence and is not getting out enough back into the human, actual experience. Um yeah, connecting like like relationships need like physical interaction, like I don't even go there, but like thinking about that and like ai doesn't understand, like you know how we need I, just it's, it's not human to me yeah yeah, not human.

Fonz Mendoza: 31:14

That's the bottom line to me, yeah I know and I understand what you mean too, because I think there has to be that element to that digital wellness and understanding that digital wellness yeah, digital wellness. And I had a last episode, episode three, at 326, because I think this is 327. Wait, I'm kind of lost in the episodes.

Holly Owens: 31:33

I wrote down. It was 364 when we were talking at the beginning. I wrote it down.

Fonz Mendoza: 31:37

I don't think I got my numbers mixed up. I kind of flipped it but it's okay, don't worry.

Fonz Mendoza: 31:41

So this is 327. Sorry, 327. Oh, my goodness, 327. But I had Dr Teodora Pavkovic on here and and she was talking about the digital wellness component and you know, at least in the youth, you know, because she does a lot of work with the youth. But she was saying, you know, there was a research that was done that even about, you know, I think it was higher than 60% of young adults, you know, or in the K-12 space, middle school and up, are spending a lot of time just using AI companions and they build up this parasocial relationship where it's a true tie and a true connection to it, and so it just I don't know. It's very interesting and, like you said, that's something for another day that we can discuss, but it's something that is coming up and very prevalent. And now this was put up on the air and I'm sure that a lot of people are like, wow, this is very interesting.

Fonz Mendoza: 32:36

But okay going back, though, to you know the ID, the ID space and the learning and development space. I want to ask you you know so now, that AI can help instructional designers, you know, with videos and creating? You know some scripts and creating the avatars and so on. What are some core, still, still still some core instructional design skills that should be non-negotiables for IDs who want to stay ahead as the technology continues to push forward.

Holly Owens: 33:08

Yeah, you have to be open to trying things. I feel like you can't be a closed-minded individual when it comes to technology. So that's the first thing that comes to mind for me when I think about this. I think about the diffusion of innovation theory, where you have at the beginning, like the people who are like automatically, like we're going to use this, like I'm going to get this fancy, colorful microphone because it's a conversation starter, conversation starter, I love this, you know it's gonna work for me. And then you have, at the end of that, you have the luddites, the people who take forever and academia is notorious for this to actually grab onto the technology and use it efficiently and be like we probably shouldn't have been using that a long time ago. So I think it's important to understand it through that perspective. You have to be open minded to using it and trying it. It may not work for you and what you're currently doing, and that's fine. Just take a spin, take a turn for that.

Holly Owens: 34:01

Also, too, I think I want to talk to a little bit of things that I've been experiencing or having conversations with people who are transitioning into this space is the fact that people the term proficiency like how does proficiency look in the instructional design space? So if we're talking about you're coming into an instructional design role when you're proficient in ai, what does that mean? Like? Does that mean you're advanced, does that mean you're at the beginning stage? Or does that mean what I say, you know enough just to be dangerous with the technology dangerous in a good way, I think.

Holly Owens: 34:36

Proficiency is thrown around, like in different spaces, and it means different things. So figure out where the proficiency, what they're truly asking for, and be proficient enough to understand the tool, how it impacts your learners, how it impacts learning experience, because people, I think they confuse proficiency with advanced knowledge of the tool or advanced things. I don't know. I wanted to ask you about that. That's one of the things I was thinking yesterday when people were talking in the webinar that I did. What does it mean to be proficient in a technology tool Like? I think proficiency could be at the very basic level. You just have a very basic understanding.

Fonz Mendoza: 35:16

Yeah, I agree with you, you know, oftentimes that say, well, I'm proficient in this, I'm proficient in that, but where's the scale? Was there a test? Was there a badge? Was there a course that you went through? Is there a certificate?

Fonz Mendoza: 35:28

And for me, proficiency is like you said, it's you know enough to understand, you know that environment or that tool that you're using and, like you said, enough to be effective and still be productive all at the same time, while still learning. And you're still working on this and mastering that tool. I mean, in my case, you know, working as a coordinator for digital learning, it's I. There's a new tool that's being adopted or a new platform. It's like, okay, I need to do my research, I need to go ahead and play around with it first, and I go in with my teacher mindset and I'm always looking for user experience, user interface, and sometimes I'm like, obviously you don't have teachers designing this or you asked a teacher, because this is not the way that I would put that. For me, my role is always three clicks or less to get me where I need to go. If it's three or more, you're out the door.

Fonz Mendoza: 36:19

I'm not a fan of that you know but anyway, you know, just being proficient, being able to just manage the website or manage the platform to do what it is that you need to do. But I love that you mentioned that, because, as I was thinking about this too, I was like there really isn't a scale. It's almost like when they do an evaluation it's like, oh well, you're using tech, even though you may be using a document camera.

Holly Owens: 36:45

Oh, you're using tech. Excellent You're, you know you're doing great, you're in advance, you get a star.

Fonz Mendoza: 36:47

You're in advance. I, I was like but that's a document camera, they, you know, and the next person is using you know a pdf, you know annotation tool. It's like, oh okay, excellent, you're like beyond proficient, and so so it's like I guess it just depends on the person, uh.

Holly Owens: 37:02

But yeah, that is a wonderful question that you mentioned, and so I would love for the audience to comment on this episode and say what do they think proficiency means, like comment on the LinkedIn post that goes along with this, because I'm really interested. It's. It's really taken some time because people again this goes back to the imposter syndrome they don't think they're proficient, but they might be. They might be proficient. And I think the final thing that I would say for instructional designers or being in the L&D space is if you are not a human that can deal with change, this is not the area for you, because something is changing every single day. So being able to assimilate to change management that goes with the open-mindedness as well. We kind of correlate with each other.

Holly Owens: 37:46

If you can't deal with shifts and priorities like if you're focused like I have to get this one task done and then something else kind of comes up, or you're designing a learning experience and then the part of the process change, so you have to go back and ask why. You know this means gave me the content. No, it's changed. Now the higher ups have done whatever, whatever, and now it's different you have to be able to assimilate to that, but also do it with grace, because you're the person that everybody's looking to, as the Also saying on the other side of that, it's going to add more time to the project, so being able to advocate in that aspect as well when the change does happen. So let's see, we went there, we said open mind. What does it mean? Like being proficient in something, and then also to being able to assimilate the quick and fast changes.

Fonz Mendoza: 38:34

I always say, like my best advice and I give it to not only best advice that was given to me that I shared recently on an episode with my friends was improvise, adapt and overcome.

Fonz Mendoza: 38:51

Those three words, I think like that's helped me out to in the education space, transitioning from not knowing anything about pedagogy and knowing just everything about customer service, marketing, sales and all the four Ps and all that Coming in. It's like okay, I got to know how to improvise, adapt and overcome. So, and like you said, advocating for yourself, showing yourself, not only showing yourself some grace, but also doing it with grace, and so I love that advice. That is wonderful, all right. Well, as we start kind of wrapping up a little bit, but I still have just a couple more questions here and now, knowing you know, as far as AI, we know that it's not perfect, we know that we always talk about you know the implicit bias, the ethics of it, maybe just even not only the return on investment but the return on instruction and the trust. So I want to ask you, from your experience, what are some ethical red flags that learning developers or instructional designers should think about before deploying a tool at scale?

Holly Owens: 40:01

somebody comes to you and they're giving you a PowerPoint presentation and they're telling you to turn it into something pretty and they're not thinking about the experience itself and how it's impacting the end user. Again going back to that checklist, so if they're coming in and they're saying, just use AI to generate this as quickly as possible, that's a huge red flag to me, because that's and they're not going to give you the time to evaluate the tool as needed. It's like coming into a relationship and it's all butterflies and rainbows at the beginning and then they say well, you know, I have whatever secret you know, I have a family somewhere else. I just found out I had a kid I didn't know about. You know stuff like that.

Holly Owens: 40:36

So exposing those things at the beginning, or like the rushiness of implementing the product or the deliverable, that's a huge red flag to me, because to me that says that the leadership doesn't quite understand the learning sciences and they don't respect the instructional design process. It's a, it's a process everything has to be. It doesn't necessarily move in linear fashion, but, um, as they come in like, just do it, just use ai. And we know you guys have ai, just use it and make it, make it pretty. It shouldn't take you that long now because you have ai. That's a red flag, that's a huge red flag, for me no most definitely.

Fonz Mendoza: 41:15

Yeah, I'm just like right now I'm just like, yes, you're right. And and it just seems too it's like okay, you've got AI to do it, now you can do it faster, but now I need you to do more, and I'm just like whoa slow down.

Holly Owens: 41:30

Quality over quantity or do you want quantity over quality? Yeah, and I think most of the time some people in that that situation will say quantity and then they will they'll realize through the evaluation process that that wasn't the right decision. Uh, for learners, because people are, you know, you may be experiencing, like when I was working in pharmacy, like these, we had these stops like if something happened on the pharmacy floor. We had, like things just shut down and they weren't, people weren't trained properly because we did the training fast and we didn't hone in on, like, what the actual issue was. So again, that's a huge red flag to me. Being order takers and just getting things done fast. I don't think that's effective at all.

Holly Owens: 42:06

But another side of that, you have to find the balance between designing the experience, getting the quality in, you know, um, making sure that the stakeholders and sneeze feel loved and that you're doing doing it within a timely fashion also, too, too, and the learners are experiencing something that's gonna change their behavior for sure. So, pretty PowerPoint presentations, turning into e-learnings or just getting something done, a deliverable training around that. Everything has to be a training. Kathy Moore says that in her book map it and you have to ask the questions. It doesn't really need to be a training. It could be a job aid, it could be something else, um? So if they're asking you just to do a training for the sake of doing a training, that's a red flag too, oh my gosh, I love that and that got me thinking about so many things.

Fonz Mendoza: 42:53

I was like does this need to be a training or could this just be like a pdf tutorial walkthrough?

Holly Owens: 42:58

or could it just be a two minute video market. They get favorite it.

Fonz Mendoza: 43:02

They can come back to it two minute video or whatever, or just like either using iorad, scribe or tango or something, just to walk them through, and and that's what I have too like, as, as I get calls, you know, from teachers, it's like, hey, I need this, this or help with this.

Fonz Mendoza: 43:17

I those are my go into my frequently asked document and then what I do is I, once I create something, I just have it there and then I'm here you go, here you go and here you go, because you know, like you said, doing a whole training on it. There really doesn't need to be all training, but doing the training for training sake. That's something that we do see often. All right, ali, so my last question for for you, before we get into our last three questions that I was always on the show with, is looking ahead with your experience in the next maybe, let's say, short term, two to three years. You know what are some tasks. You know that, in the ID world and L&D world that you see will eventually become fully automated by AI, see will eventually become fully automated by AI. But then what would be some skills, though, that you know the human designers should sharpen to remain indispensable.

Holly Owens: 44:18

Yeah, I think maybe it's more of a hope that's going to happen with AI is doing the cumbersome work of like responding to emails or going to meetings. I really feel like that takes up too much of our time at this point and there are some tools out there that can like, respond and do different things that you know. The hard stuff, like the stuff that you would say you would probably pass off to somebody who's like an administrative assistant or an executive assistant the administrative task I really feel like ai is going to take care of that. Um, one of the tools I use to kind of project manage is motion, because I'll put in like what the what the project is, how long I think it's going to take, and then it'll put on my calendar when I need to work on it and by whatever due date it needs, so it sets it all up for me. Uh, so really not having to think through like, oh, this might take me an hour, this might take me 10 hours you never know with instructional design, but next two or three years, I really see ai becoming more advanced in that image generation of things that we need to use graphics and things for. I even see it in like videos, like you know, are. Like you know, when you talk about troop here, it's already spitting stuff out for us. Again, you still have to evaluate and I don't see it fully being like, okay, it's good to go, you're still going to have to evaluate that piece, but I really think in the next two to three years is going to save us a lot more time on some of these tasks that we don't.

Holly Owens: 45:35

We call it the grunt work that we don't like to do and it's just going to be built into the systems we use every day and we're not even going to notice it. That's the thing. We're not going to notice that AI is doing it for us. It's just going to become common. Like I'm an elder millennial, so I remember logging into AOL and hearing the little thing and then you got mail Like it's just going to like. It just became a part of the culture. It just became a part of everything that we do. We're not going to notice if AI is answering our emails in an effective way and you know, it learned us so well that it knows how to respond exactly to this particular situation or design, this particular piece of the learning experience. It's just going to be there. It's not going to be a conversation of whether or not we should be using AI. It's going to be. It's just going to be there. It's going to be a part of the culture. It's going to be a part of the workflow.

Fonz Mendoza: 46:26

Excellent. Well, Holly, thank you so much. This has been an amazing conversation, but before we wrap up and end the show with the last three questions, please let our audience members know how it is that they may connect with you. In case you know, they listen to the episode, they want to follow you on socials, they want to maybe send you a message, just something to make those connections. Let us know how can our audience members connect with you?

Holly Owens: 46:51

Yeah, linkedin is the place to be for me. That's where I spend 99.9% of my time is LinkedIn world. So shoot me a message. I'm happy to respond. It might take me a little bit, but I definitely respond to almost every message, beyond the ones of people soliciting stuff to me or fond. I'm sure you get those two people. They send me their resume and they're like can you review this for me? They say nothing, they're just like can you review? And no, I don't respond to those. I respond to people who pay attention to what I'm doing and who are also motivated to want to do better for others and themselves. So LinkedIn world is where to find me, of course, listening to my podcast at up L and D um, just listen to the shows and you can connect with me there, um, but LinkedIn is where it's at for me. So Holly.

Holly Owens: 47:38

Owens.

Fonz Mendoza: 47:39

Awesome, yeah, and we'll definitely make sure that we put.

Fonz Mendoza: 47:44

Yeah, Well, we'll go ahead and put that link in there, and also, and also for your podcast too as well, Great value. I know the last conversations that you've had on there too. I'm like, okay, this is great. And so it kind of, like you know, ties into what we were talking about today, Cause I know these are a lot of questions that have come about, and so I just thank you so much for your time, but we'll definitely make sure that we link all of that great stuff on there into the show notes that way you can connect with Holly and follow her.

Fonz Mendoza: 48:09

She's fantastic. She'll do the jobs. She'll do job postings, gives great tips and recently she's been doing, you know, just some live shows, just putting herself out there and just sharing her experiences. So if you're interested in the learning development space, in the ID space, resumes, things of that sort it's like it seems like Holly's your one-stop shop and on top of that she still has your regular job too that she's doing. So I don't know how she does it, but it's great that she's doing it and we do all appreciate that. So thank you.

Holly Owens: 48:39

Holly.

Fonz Mendoza: 48:40

So now let's go ahead and wrap up our show with our last three questions. So, holly, hopefully you're ready to go here, all right. So question number one as we know, every superhero has a weakness or a pain point, and for Superman, kryptonite was that pain point. So I want to ask you, in the current world of and we'll say you know, you can either do two or just one as a whole in the learning design space and in the instructional design, or learning and development space and instructional design space, what would you say is your current?

Holly Owens: 49:13

kryptonite, yeah, saying yes to too many projects. Saying yes to too many projects, like sometimes I think getting involved like it's like a, it's like a relationship. When you get to start an idea project, it's so much fun because you can like put in all these different ideas and try different things. It's like trial and error and saying yes to that. But then you get to the point to pass the honeymoon stage of the project and you're like, why did I do this? And then I have this project and that project. So saying yes to too many things is my kryptonite.

Fonz Mendoza: 49:45

Excellent, Great question and I think that's for a lot of us too is just saying yes and all right. So question number two is if you could have a billboard with anything on it, what would it be and why?

Holly Owens: 49:59

Well, that's a great question. I know you, you ask these on your show and I'm all prepared in my answers and I'm like blanking out. But I think one of the things you know I would really make it like about I would obviously want to make it something about me, like advertising, um, the different things that I love, or just something about encouragement, um trying to really think of something good I love. I love sports and how that all integrates into um connecting with other humans. It would definitely be a billboard about human connection, um and remembering to like put your phones down and talk to other people yeah um, I think it would be something along those lines, not anything Recently.

Holly Owens: 50:40

I love anything elder, millennial, like Shira stuff. I just got a Shira 40th mug. She's the princess of power. It was a big thing when I was younger. You know, just empowerment, you know human connection empowerment. That's what the bill would be.

Fonz Mendoza: 50:56

Empower human connection.

Holly Owens: 50:57

Yeah, they're going to empower, empower human connection oh that's like a great website slogan.

Fonz Mendoza: 51:04

I'm gonna write that one down there you go and you know it's fantastic. I mean, you brought up shira I. I grew up, obviously okay. So before I went to school I would wake up. I think it was either like 5, 30 or maybe six o'clock, and then of course they had uh the bigfoot cartoon. I think they had uh shira also in the morning and like gem and the rockers or something, and then in the afternoon I could home and it'd be like he-man and transformers and all. So I grew up with all of that.

Holly Owens: 51:34

I'm just like oh, so right now, very tied to like the nostalgia of like the 80s and the 90s.

Fonz Mendoza: 51:40

I'm getting into that now. Now that I'm an adult and now that I have adult money, I'm like, oh yeah, like my little transformer, transformer Legos and things of that sort. Because now I'm like, oh my gosh, it's like this is so great. I just remember those times and different times back then, but good times, all right. And my last question for you, holly, is, if you could trade places with one person for a single day, who would that be and why?

Holly Owens: 52:10

um, I'd like to trade persons with taylor swift. Honestly, I want to experience you know, taylor swift doesn't get to experience what she's built in our culture and for people around the globe. Like I want her to be able to experience it from our perspective. And then I want to experience it from her perspective, like all the different things that she's done and like just the closeness of the, the people that she has around her. I think that you know, I always, when I talk about like yellow dig and stuff, I always really the expanse like taylor has this huge community who advocates for her, who they, they work even when she's not like visible. You know, like they're always there supporting her, no matter what, and I love that and I think that's what the human connection is about and she does a great job of that.

Fonz Mendoza: 53:11

So I I definitely wanted to replace Taylor Swift. I mean a billion dollars like pay all my bills, do my debt off that, too, that's a perk. And the LinkedIn space, because of everything that you do. You are that unicorn that you talked about in your elevator pitch, where I mean not only are you sharing job postings, you're going online, you're sharing your experiences, you're doing the job at Yellowdig, you're doing your podcast and on top of that, you know you've got just your regular everyday things that you do and I'm like, oh my gosh, you're truly living like a rock star, you know.

Fonz Mendoza: 53:43

And even then you know you've got people that are, you know, supporting you because of all the great things that you're doing. So you're not that far off. I would say that you get, maybe financially.

Holly Owens: 53:54

There might be a billion dollar thing. We don't go into this for the money, right yeah?

Fonz Mendoza: 53:58

Yeah, so, but I love it. Holly, thank you so much. This has been a fantastic conversation, thank you. Thank you for being an amazing guest and just an amazing person and, obviously, with all the great work that you do, I can't stop talking about highly of you, especially the things that you're doing on LinkedIn and just sharing yourself and putting yourself out there, and you're definitely a great example and, like I mentioned to you earlier, some of the things that you're doing are some of the things that I want to learn how to do and do better, and so this has really helped that too as well.

Holly Owens: 54:28

All you got to do is just try it once and see how it goes there you go Well.

Fonz Mendoza: 54:32

Thank you so much. I really appreciate you and for all our audience members, thank you so much for listening to this great episode. Make so much for listening to this great episode. Make sure that you follow Holly. All that info, the links and all that great stuff will be in the show notes, so make sure that you click on those. Follow Holly on LinkedIn. Make sure you also follow the EdUp podcast, too, as well. And, of course, thank you, as always, for your support.

Fonz Mendoza: 54:56

I want to give a big shout out to our sponsors. Thank you, book Creator, thank you EduAid and thank you Yellowdig. We really appreciate you believing in our mission and bringing you these amazing conversations with wonderful people that are helping just equip the masses out there on LinkedIn and just really supporting them. So thank you, as always, from the bottom of my heart. Please make sure you visit our website where you can check out this amazing episode and all the other wonderful episodes, where I guarantee you, you will find a couple of gems that you can sprinkle onto what you are already doing great. So thank you as always and, my friends, don't forget until next time. Stay techie.