Episode 339: Merissa Sadler-Holder

Dr. Fonz Mendoza: 0:11

Hello, everybody, and welcome to another great episode of My Ed Tech Life. Thank you so much for joining us on this wonderful day. And wherever it is that you're joining us from around the world, thank you as always for all of your support. As always, we appreciate all the likes, the shares, the follows. Thank you so much for interacting with our content, for your messages, and just for your overall listenership. Thank you. It really means the world to us that we can bring a great quality podcast for you to continue to learn. And that's our goal to make sure that we continue to give you conversations that'll help us continue to grow. And before we dive in, I definitely want to thank our wonderful sponsors. Thank you so much to Book Creator, Eduaid, and Yellowdig for sponsoring our show. Without you and without you believing in our mission, we wouldn't be doing what we're doing. So thank you so much for that support. And if you're interested in being a sponsor, please feel free to reach out to us and we can definitely set that up. But I am excited about today. Uh today's guest is somebody that I have been following for a very long time. And I have just seen not just her account, but just her and this glow-up. She's been doing so many great things, and she's going to tell us about some exciting things that are happening that are coming soon. But she has been talking not only at school districts, she'll participate, you know, at Stanford University. She's working with so many people in so many different ways and talking to them about AI. So I am excited to welcome to the show our wonderful guest today, Marissa Sadler Holder. Thank you so much for joining us this evening. How are you, Marissa?

Merissa Sadler-Holder: 1:59

I'm great. I'm so excited to be here.

Dr. Fonz Mendoza: 2:01

Well, I am excited to have you here. It was great just talking in the pre-show, just getting to just the way that we've connected and we've connected on LinkedIn and you know, for a for a good while now. And obviously, uh we connect with the same circles as far as AI, AI and education conversations and so on. So it's just been great to see your input. It's been great, like I mentioned, seeing your journey and the wonderful opportunities that you have had in helping educators and also just bringing your knowledge to, like I mentioned, wonderful places. I know Stanford, you know, and you've got some great things coming up, but I'll make I'll let you announce that. But I'm really excited about that for you. But before we dive in into our conversation, Marissa, for any of our audience members that are listening at this very moment that may not be familiar with your work just yet, can you give us a little bit of background and what your context is within the education ed tech space?

Merissa Sadler-Holder: 3:02

Yeah, sure. So um I have a background in teaching. Uh 13 years, I was actually a French teacher. And during COVID, I hopped into getting um a master's in um instructional design and technology for education. And I just I really dived in. I've always been one of those people who like to tinker with education and tinker with technology and see where there's an intersection there. And um after COVID, you know, I just I was kind of feeling like I wanted to do something with the two together. And, you know, lo and behold, I mean, it kind of just happened with AI kind of being open to the masses. And I thought, oh my gosh, this is, you know, this is gonna make a wave in education. I think this is something that I can dive into. And educators are, you know, gonna be looking for help. And um, so I kind of just decided to go ahead and create teaching with machines, which is really about helping educators kind of learn about these new technologies that are out there, see how they can apply their expertise to this technology and see what they can create. And um, my ultimate goal with teaching with machines is to really have the teacher um feel empowered and excited, kind of like that new shot in the arm in education that we all kind of need to get us excited about what we're doing again. And um I speak a lot about AI and education, the integration. Um, I've uh work with schools and uh I worked with Orange County Department of Education as well as an AI consultant and speak at Stanford. I I am speaking at conferences, and yeah, that's kind of what I'm doing right now. And again, like it's all about just sharing, going out there, learning the thing, and then sharing whatever I learn.

Dr. Fonz Mendoza: 5:02

Yeah, and that's great. And I, you know, one of the things that I love too that you mentioned is, you know, empowering teachers. And as we know, you know, we've seen so many things, you know, in the news, how things have changed in education and so on. And, you know, it's very important that we do help support our educators in every which way possible, you know, from pedagogy to including the tech in pedagogy and finding that balance. And so one of the things that I love uh, you know, following your page and seeing um teaching with machines, which we will make sure that we link in the show notes, guys, so you can go ahead and visit Marissa's page, but how important that technology is, but it will never compare to the impact that teachers have. And I think that that's so important that you not only help teachers, you know, learn, like you mentioned, a new technology. And and I don't know, we can still say relatively new, even though I mean, since November 2022, we're already headed to November 2025, and we've seen how it has evolved. But I think that that's something that is great, and it's something that is gonna be continuous because as the tech changes, as the tech progresses, there's still gonna have to be uh people such as yourself, myself, and many of the guests that I've had on the show to be able to share their experiences with educators to help them as we continue to move forward. So that's something that's very exciting. So I want to ask you, uh, Marissa, well, when was it that you made that jump or that choice to go from educator to say, hey, I'm gonna go ahead and just go all in on teaching with machines? What was that aha spark moment for you? Gosh.

Merissa Sadler-Holder: 6:48

I don't know. I sometimes I go, am I crazy for even to because you know the thing is, is it really is it's a huge career shift, you know. 13 years in my position, and you know, it's a stable position in a great high school. And to jump into this, it was a big decision. But like one of my friends said, you know, it's now or never, you know, I mean, this is this is this moment. And if you can help educators kind of navigate this so they can in turn help their students navigate this, this is the time. This is the only moment in time you can do that, you know. And so I just I did it. But you know, the funny thing is is that when I when I left the profession and I started exploring what I could be doing, none of the jobs that I wanted to do existed. And so I kind of just said, all right, well, I guess I'll create teaching with machines so I have something that I can put on my resume to say that I'm doing something. But I honestly, I ended up subbing. I ended up subbing for almost a year while I built out teaching with machines. And um through that, it was a humbling experience. It was a very interesting experience. It is one that allowed me insight into other classrooms than my own experience, which was incredible. And also the ability to have conversations with students who have no fear of sharing their insight or input on how they use this technology. Um, there's no repercussions, right, with a sub. So um I was able to do a little recon during that subbing situation. But, you know, as I progressed and I continued, and I have a weekly newsletter that I just kept on putting out, sharing what I've learned. Um, I think part of it too is that while I saw this as, I mean, I I tell this story basically, and it's the moment I realized that they needed somebody out there, and not just myself, but there's many, many people too. But this idea of like I was sitting down and I was writing an email in response to kind of, you know, your typical angry parent email, if you will. And I was done. I mean, it was the end of the day, it was like in April. And my friend said, I don't think you should respond to that email right now, because you know, I was a little, you know, heated or something. And so um, I said, Okay, I won't. She's like, But I think you should run it through Chat GPT and adjust it, you know. And so I did, and I just kind of sat back and was just like, oh gosh, oh, okay. This is not a technology that is just gonna be something that we just uh simply adapt to, but rather will have a profound impact on education. Um, especially, you know, like part of the thing is is like I taught French and Google Translate has had a huge impact on how we do assessments, how we teach in language classes, and we're still struggling with that, many of us, and it's been 15 years, you know. So it's one of the, or maybe 10, I'm sorry. Um, but I just kept on thinking, okay, this is where teachers are gonna need support on the outside. Now, I started following you, which was amazing on LinkedIn, and I quickly realized there's just not a lot of teachers on LinkedIn, you know, um, a lot of admin, maybe, um, you know, just kind of thought leaders, but like the chalk in hand teacher, just there's no need to kind of have that profile on LinkedIn because we don't use it to network, right? So what's the point? It, you know, and so I just kind of, you know, I started getting on LinkedIn and I realized that there's a need to make sure that the teacher voice is amplified in these spaces where there are people who are making decisions, thought leaders who are giving their opinions on where education is going. I just wanted to make sure that the chalk in hand teacher has somebody who can amplify their voice out into these spaces to make sure that they are being heard. Um, and so that's kind of the decision I made. And I it's been an amazing experience. It's been a journey, it's been ups and downs, of course, but it's been, it's been a lot of fun.

Dr. Fonz Mendoza: 11:27

Yeah. And yeah, I've seen, like I said, seeing you, like I said, uh beautiful glow up. And I always tell my friends, like, I see you, like I see the great things, and it just gets me so excited, you know, that people within the space are continuing to grow and getting all these opportunities and so on. And so just to see you, and from when, you know, we first started connecting on LinkedIn to see what you're doing. And I'm like, oh my gosh, look at what Marissa's doing now, and look at where she's at, and look at where she's headed and all those opportunities. I think that's something that's valuable too, in the sense that you're amplifying and you're also not only are you amplifying your experience, but you like you mentioned, it's you're amplifying the voice of those educators too, as well. Like you're bringing their voices to the table because oftentimes, you know, stakeholders usually are the ones that say, well, we're the one, the decision makers up at the top, but we don't include the actual users within those conversations as well. And I think that's something that's very important. But I want to kind of shift up, you know, a little bit now because I know that we talk a little a lot about this, and I know I've seen it on LinkedIn so much, and it's been something that I've seen for the past couple of years. Well, I and I know say a couple of years, but mainly maybe within the last year, year and a half, there's a strong push, and we're always going and talking about human-centered AI professional development. So, with your experience in professional development, and of course, using that phrase, human-centered AI professional development, what does human-centered mean to Marissa, especially, especially in a world where it just seems like every AI tool seems to be the star or that magic bullet, and we kind of forget about that human aspect. So tell me a little bit about how you find that balance and how you really put that the human first.

Merissa Sadler-Holder: 14:10

Yeah, um I have this belief about when we use AI that really AI should be an extension of your own expertise. And it should reflect um your voice. And so when it's not going to replace, we're not going to put out there or use it for things that we wouldn't normally know what to do and how to do. You know, I think it's very important that, because I think a lot of us and the big fear and that the thing that nobody really talks about. And I mean, whether you're an artist, whether you are a teacher or another profession, we all are sitting here going, if AI can do what I do, then what value do I bring? And it's very, it's it's a it's one of those things we don't, we don't talk about it, but that's the fear. That's what's driving the fear. And I think when we sit down and we say, okay, what value do I bring? Well, you know, the the AI cannot do anything without your direction. So if it is something that is reflecting your input, is reflecting your expertise, then we have much more control over the AI than we really are, we we really think we do, right? So um that and and and I tell like when I'm doing sessions with students, even I have this conversation about making sure that you know, there's these skills that we need to develop in this AI world. And and then they're they're you know, hard and fast skills that we've been trying to do for, you know, impart on them and you know, critical thinking, creativity, all of those things, right? And collaboration. But one of the ones and in kind of tapping into like the literary world or you know, the English teacher's world is developing that authentic voice. And what does that look like for you? Because you know what? There's only one of you. You only get to develop that authentic voice. Nothing else can do that except for you. And in a world where it's becoming more and more um inundated with AI and artificially created things, having that authentic voice that cannot be duplicated and replicated is yours. And um really work on developing that. Can you use AI to help you develop it? Yes, but it will never replace it. And I think that is so important, especially, and I don't know if you've been seeing this either, but like when we're on TikTok or we're looking at social media, I swear there's been like a shift from going away from the curated selfies and the curated content perfectly. Everybody's life is perfect, but we know, you know, behind the scenes it's not perfect, right? Whereas the more popular content creators are coming in disheveled, looking like a normal, you know, everyday human person and telling their story because they're captivating this authentic voice. And we are so drawn to it and we have such a need for it that I think we're gonna want to really start developing that even more. And I think it's gonna be really important for our students' future.

Dr. Fonz Mendoza: 17:38

Yes. No, I and one of the things that you that I love that you mentioned is that authentic voice. There's only one of you in this world, and we really want to hear your voice, your thoughts. And like, you know, like you mentioned, there are many tools that are out there that can help, you know, at least, you know, work through your message or what you're trying to say and things of that sort. But there's also a way of delivery that is you, that is the way that your true voice really comes out. And like you mentioned, in a world that is becoming very synthetic very quickly, because now with uh Sora 2 dropping and all of these videos, now you've got that video aspect of it. Uh, obviously, you know, with the large language models and so on. So I do agree with you that now it's people want to see that authenticity, who you really are. And yes, you you do notice that shift where, you know, the videos are not as overproduced as they once were. You know, people are coming in just being more natural because that's what people are craving. They're craving, they are wanting, you know, that authentic voice. And uh kind of going along that line, I kind of wanted to share, and I know I've done it in another episode, but it's very, you know, pertinent to what we're talking about, especially with voice, where a good friend of mine, she also does speaking engagements and so on. And, you know, obviously with the world of of LLMs and uh, you know, creating presentations is a lot easier, a lot quicker. You kind of give it your idea and it'll go ahead and uh pop something out for you. So she said that she was gonna do a little keynote and she said, Man, I already had this presentation, you know, done, you know, a month ago and everything like that. But of course, with the use of AI and and helping in creating that. But she said that when she was presenting, even though she has that content knowledge, she just felt like this isn't me, like this isn't really my voice, and so on. So she actually said, like, I'm gonna take a little break from all of this a little bit and just kind of see, like, like kind of guess you find yourself again, because I think oftentimes too, you do also see that side of videos and content where you can see that it is very heavily dependent on LLMs. And sometimes like you could you can kind of pick it out, you know, especially if we use it and so on, you can kind of pick it out. And sometimes it's like, uh, I'll just kind of scroll right past it. And uh like then I'll I see somebody that maybe has a lot of spelling errors or something like that. And I'm like, ooh, I want to see that, I want to read that, you know, because it just feels like like, oh, this is authentic and stuff like that. So I I really like that you said that you really help teachers also see that, that there's only one of you and it's your voice, but also that you work with students on that. And I think that's something that's very important. And as you know, like now with the release of Sora and the way that the technology is getting better and better, you know, it just seems like every week there's some kind of new improvement, there's some new model that's coming out, and you really want to help your students understand and critically think about these outputs and critically think about these uh large language models as well. But kind of going back to the work that you do with schools, Marissa, I want to ask you in your experience too, as well, you know, a lot of schools that uh are having that maybe trying uh find having a hard time reconciling maybe the the great use of AI, the use case of it, but maybe also now battling with that data privacy and ethics, you know, those barriers. What are some things that you may have seen or some best practices that you've seen, you know, along your travels within school districts? And what might be some suggestions that you yourself too have come with that you might be able to share with educators or districts?

Merissa Sadler-Holder: 22:40

Yeah, so there's two things. So there's the AI uh coherence cycle, and I'll tell you about that in a second. But first and foremost, I feel like everybody has to go through their own journey with it before they can actually address any of that, right? Um, they have to first learn about it. We have to, we have to model those critical thinking and excitement and innovation. So first learning and being lifelong learners is looking into that. Um, I think a lot of times schools, given the time that they're given, they just, you know, kind of want to front load all of this onto educators. And, you know, here's your one and a half hours, two hour training, and then that's it. And then, you know, expect greatness. And the thing is, is, you know, we don't do that to our students. We get fired if we try doing that, you know, moving on to the next lesson. But um I think um it's this idea that, you know, you have to have two light bulbs that go off. And I'm not gonna swear, although I do say it in my head. The first light bulb is like, oh, this is cool. This can do this for me. This is amazing. And then the it's the oh beep light bulb. The second light bulb is where it's like, oh, this is going to impact. This is going to do XYZ. This is going to affect the things that I do and how my students do things, how my school could possibly do things. There is going to be the oh beep light bulb that has to go off. And we have to have space to be able to do both. The first one has to happen before the second one happens. And then we can start addressing those really big picture ideas and going after how this can be done ethically, safely, um, and with intention. Now, what I've seen a lot of success in working with schools is the AI coherence cycle that I also work with Danelle Almaras. And what we've created with this cycle is let's not, you know, we kind of modeled it off of what business, successful businesses have done to integrate AI. And instead of sitting down with their employers and our employees and saying, here, go do a two-hour training and then off you go, what they first do with AI is say, what's on fire? Where are we bleeding? What is going on? Because we can't possibly think of anything else until we address those huge, huge challenges that we have. And I think if we with this AI coherence cycle, it's kind of doing the same model. It's saying, what are our biggest challenges right now? What are some initiatives that we have to do to address? You know, AI is the last thing on my mind when it comes to all of this. But instead, when we look at these big challenges we have and say, where can AI possibly come and help me with these things? Then we're really leveraging the tool. And along with that comes learning and exploration of the tool and professional development. But now we're doing that first light bulb. Oh, hey, this can help me with things, you know, and then you're getting the professional development in a way that is not here, let me sit you down for two hours. It's cyclical, it keeps on going. And we're addressing the challenges that we have at hand. And I think that's going to be more reflective of how we're going to be seeing AI in education in the future. But um, I I've seen some success with it. I will tell you the I worked with a school that decided to do that probably mid-year, um, where we just decided to focus on getting their curriculum um mapped. And we had about 30% of the staff who had the curriculum map and uploaded onto a um, what is it, like a program that documents it, right? And this was a part of their accreditation process. Okay. And they really wanted to get it done. By like two months after leveraging AI and working with teachers, we had 80% of the teachers completed with all of their curriculum mapped. And it's just like, look, it's your expertise that did this with this tool. This is how we could be addressing and using and leveraging AI. It doesn't always have to be a sit-down, here's your two-day, you know, professional development. And along with that comes learning about the limitations. And that's where making sure you're using it ethically, that's why professional development is important. So we we are careful and we're protecting ourselves, we're protecting our students, and we're protecting our learning community.

Dr. Fonz Mendoza: 27:26

I love that. And you know, that actually covers a lot of things that I wanted to ask as a follow-up because as we know, you know, with tools like the tools that are out there now, the plethora of platforms that we have available, sometimes it's like, hey, we just want the next shiny tool. And we just want it because we want to do this faster, as opposed to, okay, how can we reimagine what we're learning with these tools and maybe take it to that next level? And I know uh I'm a big fan of the Samar model, you know, the substitution, augmentation, modification, and redefinition. So oftentimes what we normally see, and initially, you know, with as with any adoption, sometimes you'll get that substitution factor of, well, before I used to do handouts, well, now I can use something like Kami that I can annotate and I can do the same thing, you know, digitally. But then also, what else can we do to take that and augment what can what are some things that we couldn't do before that we're able to do there and then modify and then redefine? And sometimes I feel that many times, as quick as we are, sometimes as educators, we just want the next shiny thing and we just kind of say, ah, okay. And then when it loses its lore and its glamour, it's like, all right, let's move on to the next thing because we we just we're we're like that. We get so excited and we want to try those things. But I think with this, even with the steps that you described, having the teachers being able to work through it as they're working there, it's not only going to be something that's gonna help them see that they can do their work more efficiently, but also be more effective and also think of new ways that they can enhance those lessons as they're putting their curriculums together and thinking, like, wow, like this is something that I would have never been able to do before. And now I can enhance those lessons for my students. So that is great that you shared all of that because I think that that really plays well into this. And so, my next question to you though, like I mentioned, as educators, we get so excited and we want to use the next tool because we see what's hot uh that's trending on, you know, on educator um TikTok or on whether it's uh X or Instagram and so on. So, as we know, you know, there's a lot of hype that gets put onto a lot of these tools. So, how do you help uh administrators discern what would be a good tool versus something that might just be snake oil?

Merissa Sadler-Holder: 30:00

Oh my gosh. Um I I think we always should be kind of centered on the effectiveness, right? Because there's a lot of these tools out there. And you do, first of all, you have to give them time to explore the tools to see if they are effective. And I think what I like to tell the administrators is like just pick pick three. You don't need to pick, you know, the 500 that are out there, just pick three and just get good at it. Get good at it. And once you're done getting good at it, share out what it is that you did with it. Make sure you're creating that community of innovation and sharing and excitement so people can actually kind of bring that PLC alive, if you will, right? I don't, I mean a PLC could be a dirty word for some people, your listeners. I don't know, but it's that idea where it's like in the true sense of the learning community, right? So um I I I think just, you know, you don't, I think it's very important that you don't have to know everything all at once. And I think as educators, that's really, really hard for us because we've always been told that the value we bring is the expertise in the XYZ subject. We are expected to know it all. And the fact of the matter is, is that we don't. And we're all exploring and we're all learning and we're all exploring this new technology. So pick three, good, good. At it, get some data back from you know the users, see how they're doing with it, see what they like, what they don't like, and then you can, you know, kind of continue on. But again, you have to create this community of like, is this effective? And I'm a big uh believer in teaching educators how to fish versus go to the market and really kind of get into the weeds. How is this tool working? So in the future, if I'm simply using a tool that is safe and approved by our school, that if I know how to use it and I know how to manipulate the tool for a certain output, I don't need XYZ tool over there. I don't need this, you know, 555th tool that's out on the market, right? Like I just need my own intelligence. I think I think that's what we have to keep in mind. Like, we don't always have to go to the market. And also, I'll just add in there's a lot out there. Let's also use discernment when we are looking at these tools in a sense of who's putting it out there, what's what is it saying, and are they really educators? Because I'll see TikToks out there where they've just hired somebody to say that they're a teacher. And it's just like, no, you know, like let's, you know, that doesn't exist. That is inauthentic. You know what I mean?

Dr. Fonz Mendoza: 33:13

So yes, no, and that's great, and that's sound advice, uh, definitely, with especially how saturated the market has become. And again, and I'm talking simply just education, but I mean, even in the professional world, I mean, so many things that are happening and you know, systems in place, and you've got SaaS products and you've got all these vendors, and it's just everybody's really just selling on the buzzwords, you know. We this is gonna provide synergy and this is gonna go ahead and um you know build up these particular skills and so on. But then, but are the results there? You know, is there data to back that up? Exactly. And so I think that it is sound advice that you shared where if you are a district that is deciding to move forward with this, is really great to just say, okay, let's like, let's have a community. Um, first, maybe I and I know Dr. Nika McGee, I know when she started working with this here in uh uh one of the school districts that's close to where I live, she started and brought in a group of teachers, and they were like kind of like the teachers in the loop, and they tried everything out, pushed it at its paces, saw the results that they were getting, and then they were saying, okay, this is something that would be useful for X, Y, and Z content and kind of take it from there. Or just like you said, pick those three and just really take a deep dive and see where you go. The the only thing is with me, and and you know, being a digital learning uh coordinator is although we do say, okay, let we're gonna go ahead and level set and we're gonna use these three platforms, you know that there's those teachers, I call them the speedboats, that are gonna hop on and use the freemiums of every other app that is out there, and then they're gonna say, no, we want this one and we want this one. And then later on, you know, a month later, it's like, hey, I want this one now. But it's like, wait a minute, it's like you haven't given enough time for the tool to give us that data to see if it is being effective. And I think that's something that's very important in checking the efficacy and obviously checking the price on a lot of these apps because it is quite an investment. And then for you to not be able to get the results that you they promised that you would get, then that's something where you feel like, oh my gosh, did we make a mistake? So it's important to take those deep dives. And I think also going back to the model of how you do professional development, I think that's something that is great. And PLCs to become true PLCs, not please learn compliance meetings, but actual I've never heard that LCs. Yes, because a lot of the times it's just PLCs instead of teachers actually talking about lessons and what they could do and planning, it's really here's another list of check uh, you know, that I have to that you guys have to check off for compliance. So it's really please learn compliance. And so that's what I think that they've turned into many times. But it's so important to build that community and and it's important to have that communication collaborate across the district, across grade levels, across content, and see what works and just go with that, you know. I think it's uh even getting, yeah, sorry. Oh no, no, go ahead. Go ahead.

Merissa Sadler-Holder: 36:35

I was just gonna say, even like just getting the community involved too. Like it doesn't, you know, you have all these different stakeholders that should be involved in all of this. Because guess what? The kids are watching, they're watching how we're approaching, they're watching how we are doing this, and we need to be modeling what innovative thinking looks like and how we approach this technology ethically and with intention.

Dr. Fonz Mendoza: 36:59

Yes, most definitely. And you know what? And that's also a great point that you mentioned. It's having everybody at the table. And that's even including parents. Parents should also know what it is and what's happening and what the school is trying to do. And just, you know, and and obviously it's all for the good of the students. We want those results. We want our students to be successful, but you know, we can also include that parent community parent community, and that'll definitely help uh your edge your school be very successful too, as well, because parents get informed. So I want to ask you now, just kind of uh changing things up a little bit. And you know, I want to talk about the great event that you'll be speaking uh at. But before we get to that, just to kind of round out the conversation a little bit, is I want to ask you, what is one thing that through all of your travels and all the work that you've done with teachers, what is the one thing that still surprises you about teachers as far as misconceptions that they still have about AI?

Merissa Sadler-Holder: 38:07

Um I think it goes back to what I was talking about early um earlier about where they're finding their value in all of this. I think the biggest misconception is that they don't have value if something like AI can do what they do. And that the fact is is that their expertise is what makes them so valuable. Their ability to have human connection with their students is what makes them so valuable. And the nuances that they bring into the classroom makes them so valuable. And that while the technology is important to learn and learn about, and we need to model what that looks like, it's still so important to keep in mind that it is a it's technology and what we do in education learning the science of learning, learning is messy and beautiful, and sometimes fast, sometimes slow, but it is this incredible process that we curate for our students, and that simply should not be chalked up to something that can help optimize that messiness because it's in the messiness that students learn.

Dr. Fonz Mendoza: 39:41

Yes. Oh, I love that. That is wonderful. That is wonderful. Oh, that is great. I it I love that it just really kind of hit and resonates just because even in the classroom, you know, when when I was in the classroom, it wasn't always perfect. And I think for a lot of teachers, you know, it's the the pressure is on that they feel that they have to be on 100% and that the lessons have to be perfect and that they have to know everything. But somewhere along the line in my my 11 years in the classroom, I slowly started figuring out because I was like in a wake, I guess, kind of burning out and trying to always know everything. But I then I figured I was like, you know what, it's okay to not know everything. You know, I am here as a as a learning engineer. I'm I'm engineering and creating these learning experiences for the students where we can all at the same time learn together. And I think that that was something that was great. And now with the tools that are available, you can definitely take that learning to that next level and going in deeper and understanding how to leverage those tools in a way that you're still engineering a great experience and enhancing the learning for students. I think that that's something that is great. And I think that that should kind of alleviate some of that pressure and and some of the, you know, at least for some teachers, to just milk up, make them feel at peace and ease. Because, like you said, some may feel like, well, I mean, this thing's gonna replace me. I was like, but it's not because it doesn't know the students, it can't read their faces, it can't, it doesn't know where it is that who where the students are coming from, what side of town they may live, what it is that they may need, and how you as a teacher can help shape that student's not only day, but that year by being present and being there for them. And this this is just a tool on the side to help with the learning process, but it's irreplaceable, like you mentioned earlier that we talked about that teacher contact, that what a teacher can do is is a life-changing experience for sure for a lot of students that you know that could be the the safest place that they'll be all year, and you as a teacher have that, but now we have those tools also for the learning as well. So I think that's something that is very powerful. And yes, it it's teaching is messy, and it's okay that it's messy. And I figure sometimes if if if you don't feel that messiness, then are we really teaching? I was like, Well, but I mean, I'm just throwing that out there because I figure like myself, I was like, man, if if I'm not being messy, I was like, then what am I doing? Like, we need to get messy, we need to get heads-on, and sometimes it it kind of uh it looks a little different for a lot of us, but I think that that's great, awesome. All right, so Marissa, I want to ask you now, because I'm really excited. I know I saw the news, you know, a couple days back and everything, but I want to know a little bit about this wonderful experience that you're gonna have pretty soon, and you are going to be presenting at EdTech Week. Is that correct?

Merissa Sadler-Holder: 42:54

Yes. Um, I will be in EdTech uh at Ed Tech Week in New York at Columbia University. I will be presenting, sorry, that's a mouthful. I will be presenting with Bonnie Neves, um, who has been a guest on the podcast as well. So that's really exciting. And we are, you know, I went last year and it was my first experience. You know, again, coming from the classroom, I didn't even know these existed, right? And so I found out and I went and I kind of realized that I, you know, that was one of the only teachers there. Or, you know, my experience was just as a teacher. And I mean, they had, you know, superintendents and, you know, big wigs and all these people, but then there's, you know, me. And I thought, you know, we need more, um, we need to hear more from those teachers who have, you know, chalk in the hand, you know, insight. Because frankly, like these, you know, the ed tech out there that we are we're experiencing. And as teachers, as soon as it finally comes to our classroom, we are looking at whether or not it is effective. Because, you know, frankly, we could use 50 tools in one year. And, you know, what makes your tool special? Well, is it effective? Is it doing what it should be doing? And I think sometimes there is a disconnect between the promise and the reality. And so this year I am so excited that they reached out to us to have us come and speak and kind of amplify that teacher voice and say, you know, I call myself the spicy apple because I kind of tell it like it is, you know, this is really what's going on, you know, type thing. And because the reality is this soon enough, we as educators will have access if we're not already doing it now, some of us teachers out there will have access to a tool that will allow us to create our own tools. What will happen to ed tech then? What will happen to those companies then once we actually just start building it ourselves? And so just kind of putting it out, you know, like look, this is this is a very real potential. And you know, um somebody has to say it, and I guess it's gonna be us.

Dr. Fonz Mendoza: 45:30

Yeah, no, and you know what, that is a wonderful message. I really love that because up until this point, we've depended on what others think that we need. But as a teacher, you are the one in the classroom and you are the one that knows what your obstacles, barriers are, you know what your wins are, you know what your students need. And so you're absolutely right. Once that tool comes out where you yourself can create what you need, then where does that leave everybody that up until this point were seemingly the experts in telling us what we need? And I think that that is a very powerful and a very spicy hot take, Marissa. And I love it. And I'm all here for it because uh, like you said, just being able to amplify that voice and hearing more teachers out and now say, hey, you know what? For right now, yes, we may need you and depend on you because obviously you guys have the infrastructure. But when that moment comes, I know what my student needs and I can easily build some build something for them for that specific use case for that group, that small group, that large group, for the varying levels that I may be teaching, I can easily make it, have it done, and it's there and it's mine. Or I can also see it as this and this, which is to me, I was like, hey, this is what would be great where as a collective, be able to interchange our tools with one another in different districts and say, hey, I like what Marissa's doing over there, and I like what that tool is doing. I want to see if I can go ahead and use that here. And it's like all of a sudden, it's like, whoa, Marissa, your tool really helps me out here. And then, hey, Fonz, you've got that cool podcasting tool. I want to try that with my students, and the it just becomes a true community, and we are all sharing the tools that we build for ourselves, and then we can actually say it is teacher built, as opposed to many other platforms that say that are teacher built, but may have never had a teacher on their staff at all, whatsoever. So spicy take there, Marissa. I love it, I love it, and the fact that you're presenting with Bonnie too. Oh, Bonnie is such a love. She is wonderful, she has a wonderful heart and such a passion for education. So I'm very excited and happy for you. And so uh please let us know for our listeners that may be attending at tech week. When is the uh your talk going to be?

Merissa Sadler-Holder: 48:04

Oh gosh, I was supposed to know that. Um it will be, I know, it will be on Wednesday in the afternoon. I believe it's uh um uh I believe it's at four. And I'll double check and um maybe you can put it in the show notes. Yes, because I did not come prepared.

Dr. Fonz Mendoza: 48:22

No, I definitely will put that in the show notes, and definitely, guys, make sure that you visit Marissa's website at teachingwithmachines.com. That will also be in the show notes, and you can probably connect also. I think the best place to connect with Marissa is also going to be LinkedIn. But Marissa, tell our audience members where else they might be able to connect with you.

Merissa Sadler-Holder: 48:44

Yeah, um, you can just email me directly at Marissa M-E-R-I-S-S-A at teachingwithmachines.com. I mean, I'm open. My emails are open. I'm more than happy to, you know, meet with you, zoom with you, whatever it is that you guys want to talk about. Um, I just I really want teachers to know that there is somebody out there who who who will help them navigate this. So um email me. And then there's also a Facebook uh group called Teaching with Machines. You can just kind of go find that. And then I'll also send you that link for Facebook and LinkedIn. LinkedIn's kind of where I've been hanging out. Um, but I also have a weekly newsletter as well. And you can find that on my um website, teachingwithmachines.com. Also on the website, just know that there's a bunch of templates, ready to go, free downloads. Everything's free. Just, you know, it's really just to help you kind of either set up AI classroom norms with your classroom or um what I call a flexible toolbox where you add in AI into your class, you invite it in with boundaries, and you allow your students to kind of start building their own literacy and their own uh fluency with AI. So while supporting your own curriculum. So um all of that is free for you guys. It's a pleasure, and it was great talking to you today for sure.

Dr. Fonz Mendoza: 50:16

So awesome. And again, I did just hop on to LinkedIn and go to your profile. So it'll be October the 22nd, which is that Wednesday, that Marissa will be talking. So, and again, we'll definitely put that in the show notes too as well. So if there's anybody that's listening that's gonna be at Ed Tech Week, please make sure that you do check out that talk with Marissa and Bonnie. And you're gonna hear uh Marissa's spicy takes, which I'm all here for, which is great. And all of that will be in the show notes. But Marissa, before we wrap up, as you know, I always love to end the show with the following three questions. So hopefully you are ready to go. So here we go. Question number one: as we know, every superhero has a pain point or a weakness. For Superman, kryptonite weakened him. So I want to ask you, Marissa, in the current state of education or AI in education, you can pick either one, or if you want to give both, what would you say is your current edu kryptonite?

Merissa Sadler-Holder: 51:18

Oh my gosh. Uh kind of um it's this, I know it's my I know it's it's mindset, but the inability to I I guess it's really difficult to kind of see kind of where you you think things are moving and you believe things are moving, and know it takes quite a bit to get there, but the inability to see the your surroundings and see where education is actually staying put and stagnant, and you're you're just hoping so much more to come out of it. And I think a lot of it is mindset, and I know that Dr. Mark Isaacs uh Isaacs, the gentleman you had on the last, by the way, if you're listening to that, go back and listen to that podcast. It is absolutely amazing. I'm gonna make this man a my friend. I don't know how. He is he's so great. Everything he said was amazing. That was an amazing episode. But kind of this idea that we're stuck and we're, you know, we're going back to the way things we've always done because it's always worked. But the problem is it's it's just not working, and nobody everybody knows that, but nobody's doing anything to make any changes. So I I see the change and the demand, and I think we need to kind of pair up the demand for what our students actually need, and we just we we just need to make that mindset shift just slowly, if if if anything.

Dr. Fonz Mendoza: 52:48

No, I love it. I actually I put out a clip earlier today about our conversation, and he called it like cognitive entrenchment. And it just the where you just do the same thing every year, you know, your calendar basically looks the same, your lesson plans, your tests, and so on. And then so you wonder, why are we why is innovation not working? Why are we not innovating? Well, because you're stuck in that loop of doing things continually instead of, like you said, like what is working for the students and what is not? And let's kind of make those changes. So, yes, definitely uh great conversation with uh Dr. Mark Isics, and that's fantastic. Uh, question number two, Marissa, is if you could have a billboard with anything on it, what would it be and why?

Merissa Sadler-Holder: 53:41

I should have prepared for this question. Um I think I would say the value is you.

Dr. Fonz Mendoza: 53:56

I like that.

Merissa Sadler-Holder: 53:57

Yeah. And why? Because it's true. You know, I mean, again, like AI won't, you know, AI I feel like we can be so creative with AI. And so I think now we have this opportunity to do that, but only you bring that in. Only you decide what is actually good. Only you decide if it represents your creativity, only you decide if it's reflective of your expertise. So the value is you without it, it it just simply does not exist.

Dr. Fonz Mendoza: 54:31

Oh, that is powerful. That is a wonderful billboard. Like you got me thinking, I'm like, yes, that is that is a great message. I love it. All right. Question number three, last one. If you could trade places with a single person for a day, who would that be and why?

Merissa Sadler-Holder: 54:49

I would probably, he's gonna laugh at this. I would I would totally change places with Canal. Kenal Dalal. I don't know if you know him. He he's quite the character, but this man is when we talk about creativity, like I would love to just be in his boots, in his brain for a day, and just see the sparks flying and see where it takes us. If you don't follow him, he's amazing. He's on LinkedIn. He is such a forward thinker visionary when it comes to AI and education. And while I like to say that I'm kind of a couple steps ahead of the game, this man is lapping me. So um it's hard to keep up with him sometimes, but his excitement and creativity and human-centered everything and just super authentic. Everybody should follow him. He's a lovely person, and I would love to be him for a day. Yes.

Dr. Fonz Mendoza: 55:49

And I can vouch for that. He definitely is. And uh, I'll definitely I'll even put his his uh info there in the show notes too. If you follow him, I promise you you will not regret it. You and just like Marissa says, so much energy, so much passion, and it's somebody wonderful that you should definitely connect with and be part of your network for share. Marissa, thank you so much for a wonderful conversation this evening. It has been an honor and a pleasure. And like I said from the very beginning, just since we first connected to see the wonderful work that you're doing, where you have been and where you are going. And I think it's something fantastic. And I love to see that within the community. So much growth. Keep doing you, keep owning your shine. And I'm just excited for what the future will bring for you because I can definitely see you speaking at many more conferences, bigger conferences, and you just keep doing it, my friend. I appreciate you. And as always, any guest of my show is a forever guest. So next time that you've got something major going on, your your next book or anything else that you're gonna be doing, you're always welcome back, my friend. It's an honor to have you. Thank you.

Merissa Sadler-Holder: 57:05

Thank you so much for having me.

Dr. Fonz Mendoza: 57:06

Appreciate you. All right, guys. And for all our listeners, thank you as always for all of your support. Please make sure you check out this episode and the other 338 episodes that were I promise that you will find a little something just for you that you can sprinkle onto what you are already doing. Great. So please make sure you visit our website at myedtech.life, myedtech.life. And again, thank you so much to our wonderful sponsors, Book Creator, Yellowdig, and Edu8. I appreciate all of your support. Like I said, we definitely want to put out some wonderful conversations within our education space so we can continue to amplify wonderful voices and continue to grow and learn from one another. So thank you very much. And my friends, until next time, don't forget, stay techie.